A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

If that is legitimately true, that the Force CREATES a balance, that

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the FORCE made Luke die at the end of TLJ because Snoke died in the middle of TLJ, that implies a) that Luke has no cognitive Free Will, and then.... b) what does that mean about the 1000 years of Jedi stability and Republic stability? Was there no Dark Side at all during that time? For a thousand some years, there were hundreds of thousands of Jedi.... so shouldn't there have been hundreds of thousands of Dark Jedi running around in this time frame? Why wasn't there? Why is the Force only requiring balance at certain [conveniently well placed] times?

 

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Leia making a quip about her hair was the perfect dialog? Really?

 

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I'm interested in Luke's fear of failure, and I wonder if that's not connected to his desire to consume as much Jedi wisdom as possible. It's why he has that moment of fear that leads him to consider killing Ben - which, I'll admit, feels off to me, unless we can delve more into the specific fear of creating another Darth Vader. I expect that his journeys have shown him, like you said, that this always happens, and he hopes that the very first Jedi Temple can help him. It can't.

I don't think Luke set off to die on Ach-To.

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I don't know if it means they don't have a plan so much as firing Treverrow allows them to re-do whatever they had planned before.

 

You are seriously doing everything and anything to promote this movie, to talk it up, to defend it. And posts like this, makes it seem like you're taking the approach of the "intelligentsia", like the "academic", in a way which says "You're just not smart enough to understand it, to get it, to enjoy the movie. Its artsy and smart, and nuanced, and deep, and complicated, and intricate, and you just wouldn't understand a masterpiece such as this."

(Not sure if this will be a double post, but the forums are really acting up and this is my second time writing up this post.)

 

I'm still trying to think about Kylo and Snoke and stuff.... and why not learning anything more about Snoke is bad.

Its bad not because of how Snoke was a villain....but because of how he did/didn't contribute to the plot.

Starting through the fact that everything that happens in TFA and TLJ is because of that Ben/Luke scene at the temple - the flashback; this event is what starts everything, its the catalyst for the ST (and it happens off-screen!) Luke even mentions how he knows Snoke has already gotten to Ben, and thats why there is the Dark Side in Ben.

So we have this character. Character X. Who has never before been seen or shown or spoken of. He apparently can seduce Ben Solo to the Dark Side. Somehow we know at this time (roughly 10 years prior to TFA/TLJ), he is able to manipulate Ben Solo and turn him to the Dark Side, and apparently Luke Skywalker knows who he is/knows of him. We're not given any information on *WHAT* he is, or *WHY LUKE/BEN KNOW HIM* or *HOW HE KNOWS BEN SOLO* or *HIS ABILITIES*, we also don't know why Luke is willing to kill Ben Solo (his own, 16 year old nephew, in his sleep) despite KNOWING that the Dark Side he senses in the boy is Snoke's doing. So Luke is able to recognize that Ben Solo apparently doesn't have free will in this situation; and that the only rightful thing to do is to kill him in his sleep. (its like a bad version of the 'kill baby Hitler' theme). No attempts to disarm the boy, trap him, talk to him, figure out whats going on. No attempt to attack/disable/stop Snoke. Just "lets kill this kid, oh shoot he woke up... oh no.... ok, I'll go hide and run away from the galaxy.... that's clearly what will be best for the galaxy, not confronting Palpatine 2.0 or confronting Vader 2.0 or helping the NR or Resistance, nope.... I'll become a hermit.... KTHXBAI".

The Emperor vs. Snoke comparisons are so bad. 1) Emp dies at the end of the third movie. Snoke dies in the middle of the 2nd. 2) The Emp's very name gives a detailed background of who he is, and since we are given more scope of the Empire vs. First Order, it gives more detail to the character of Palp vs. Snoke, 3) we are given the briefest amount of stuff about Snoke, we know he apparently can use the [dark side of the] Force, we know he is the Supreme Leader of the FO, and we know he seduced Ben Solo to the dark side, 4) we are given no information [so far] on the Knights of the Ren or why Ben Solo upon turning to the dark side takes on the name of Kylo Ren, we just know he becomes seduced to the dark side because of Snoke. 5) We are given nothing to base his character on, other than appearance, and the brief moments on screen (less than 25 minutes all told before his death), but yet we are left with tons and tons of questions (about said appearances, about his character, about his background, about the First Order, Knights of Ren, about Ben/Kylo, about the dark side of the force at this point in the timeline, etc., etc, etc.)

And that's probably why the death of Snoke halfway through this movie, despite being the "ultimate twist" is a bad idea. On one hand its really cool and neat and interesting, on another, it deligitmizes Kylo, the background to all of this, to the First Order, etc. We are given no scope of the galaxy or to the First Order, but we know by the end of TLJ the First Order has lost two huge drednaughts, Starkiller base, a ton of forces, and their supreme leader. Meanwhile, the NR is apparently completely gone, and the Resistance is down to about 10 people on the Millenium Falcon. We also know the FO lost Phasma, a top officer for recruitment and stuff, and Hux is a bumbling Disney baffoon villain, and is the laughingstock of Kylo and Poe Dameron (ie. Wedge 2.0 with a cocky attitude).

Either EP9 has a LOT to do with flashbacks to show the timeframe AROUND the flashback we saw 3 times in TLJ and once in TFA; or we will have to read books to figure out something crucial to the ST. Which, while I love reading the expanded universe, that's a horrible premise for the ST, especially when the ST is so much of a retread of the OT to begin with.

 

Well, I was saying people that hadn't seen the film since it hadn't been released yet and were judging it purely based upon bulleted spoilers they read might be missing the nuance.

Then I posted an article stating the movie was nuanced the day that the movie was released but before it was screened yet for mass audiences in the US. I hadn't even seen it yet!

So I don't think so?

 

He contributed enormously to the plot of one and a half movies.

 

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My take was that when Luke went out to cast detect evil on Ben the Dark Side sirens were going off in his head so loudly that the lightsaber came out almost reflexively. I mean the guy straight up faced down Darth Sidious, but he felt more darkness in Ben than anyone he had ever seen, and it's understandable that it shook him. Once he took a moment and realized it was still Ben he started to pull the saber back.

 

I like this take.

 

I agree.

 

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I've shared this theory on Reddit and Starwarsnewsnet. It answers the question, "Why risk your ship getting destroyed and not command Kylo and Hux from afar by hologram?" It also explains the differences between what Palpatine sensed in the Unknown Regions and what we see in TLJ.

 

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Do people think there will be a new Jedi Order? It's not something I hear discussed at all, but from watching the movie, I felt like that was the path they're heading on. I also felt that Luke still had a role to play and that Kylo would surely be redeemed (Luke told Leia no one is ever truly gone). Everyone seems to think the latter is likely untrue. It seems like I understood the movie way differently than everyone else.

 

Pretty much everything you said here is what I got from the movie, too.

 

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I thoroughly enjoyed this movie and how everything played out. That being said, I think its possible and I'd be totally fine if they doubled back on some of the big twists. I'd be OK if Snoke were still alive. I'd be totally fine if Kylo Ren was lying about Rey's lineage. Because these are still possibilities. Snoke is powerful and we saw what Luke was capable of. Maybe Snoke is in some other corner of the galaxy and he was using the force like a puppeteer, projecting his voice and controlling the body (a corpse?) we saw chopped in half.
Lies and deceit are the ways of the Dark Side, not just the sith. Kylo was manipulating Rey to join him. He could have straight up lied to break Rey's spirit or to goad her to using the dark side against him.
About Luke, I like the story that he has been given here. They make him much more relatable by portraying him as capable of making mistakes and failing.
John Williams does it again with this score. I'm still studying the soundtrack and there are lots of new themes and references to old films, especially ESB and the prequels.

There was a lot of talk about blurring the lines between light and dark prior to the film's release.

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That seems to have been a misdirection, because it seems like the good vs evil is clear cut by the end of the film. Rey seems to be on the path to restarting the Jedi Order, but Kylo want to restart everything by destroying the Jedi and not bringing back the sith. I think the Knights of Ren was Kylo's dark side alternative to the Sith, but that's something for future media to tell us about.

 

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I like to think the opposite, that Luke might be back because his death is ambiguous in the sense that he seemed to recover from the fatigue that initially struck him, then died, so it was like he ascended or chose to become one with the Force than anything, leading me to think they might bring back a concept from the Had Abaddon/Green Moon drafts of Return of the Jedi where Obi-Wan comes back to life.

But then I think about how Hamill says he lobbied to have the death pushed back to IX, and how RJ says this was needed to put the focus squarely on Rey and Ben, and I think that probably he'll be a ghost but nothing more. And I think that Snoke is likely a goner for the same reasons.

I do think Kylo Ren will be redeemed in a Ulic Qel-Droma fashion. I really don't want to see a rehash of VI, and I'm not sure how they'd pull it off with Snoke gone, which is a good thing anyway.

 

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Well I think Hux is going to try to depose Ren, and the other Knights thereof might be the key to that.

 

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One thing people seem annoyed about is how quickly the First Order has gotten control of the galaxy.

Let's not forget, there has been almost 30 years of peace and the New Republic and other worlds are complacent. Suddenly the First Order, what they considered a minor Imperial Remnant, suddenly unleashes a weapon that destroys the Republic capital, striking fear into these worlds fearing they will be targeted if they don't surrender. Coupled with a larger fleet then these systems can likely muster in a hurry, it seems everything is lost.

But fear can only take you so far, and being humiliated again and again in the space of the first weeks of their galactic reign will likely change it.

Factors are: failing to wipe out the Resistance at D'Qar and Crait (despite destroying their four main capital ships and killing off most of their leadership), losing their weapon and their flag/capital, their Supreme Leader and his elite Praetorian Guard being killed in their own chambers, Hux and Ren's continual humiliations throughout the events of TLJ.

Let's not forget - we've only seen a week or two of 34 ABY, we've seen the Resistance POV and the POV of Hux and Kylo Ren, we aren't told much of the galaxy yet or how the stronger NR worlds are responding (they could be in Deleted Scenes or for future material). These setbacks by the First Order will (I hope) factor into the events of Ep9 and prove that the enemy is nothing more then incompetent and impulsive fools.

 

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Speaking of Ulic Qel-Droma, I had been hoping that the Luke and Rey storyline could have been more like TotJ: Redemption, with both the student and teacher learning from each other, but not like Rey has anything to learn from Luke, since he was still thinking about burning the books even after Rey left.

I really hope Snoke shows up again, but I'm not holding my breath for that. It would be satisfying if halfway through the next movie, after Kylo has screwed up again and again (though I expect the First Order to rule most of the galaxy by then due to sheer firepower), Snoke walks back in and demotes him back to apprentice, that Snoke let Kylo take over to see how he'd do (and to see if Kylo was as evil as he claimed, since killing Han shook him more than he'd ever admit), and yeah, Kylo's not doing so well so far.

I'm not sure there will ever be a new Jedi Order, since the prequels are kind of unpopular. 30 years ago Luke was supposed to be the first new Jedi, and, well, look at where we are now. Rey will probably start looking, then she'll be killed off screen by the Second Order (the actress said she's done after IX, though you never know) then replaced by someone new in Episode X, who will be replaced by someone else in Episode XIII then XV then XVIII, and onwards. That's the Disney way.

Overall, its hard to tell how the galactic situation is. The First Order has large fleets and I expect they'll roll out more superweapons, but not like they have the clone armies of the Republic to actually occupy or even directly control that many worlds yet. And of course their Unknown Regions holdings are a complete blank. It would probably be too much to hope for Mon Cala to show up as a new Resistance capital/base.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot the tag and then glitchy board.

 

My interest in the ST era......

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Has waned with Luke's Death. Him having the mentality of quitting to die, and also the lack of world building (really wish we saw some New Republic remnants) also play a role. I am tired of this era taking a massive *#@$ on the skywalker legacy. It already sucks that his students were murdered or turned to the darkside and that he left family/friends to go die. With Rey not being a skywalker (unless we get a twist in IX), Leia going to die, and Ben Solo still being a monster, allowing Luke to survive TLJ and help Rey would have been a improvement from what we got. Give him another chance of rebuilding the Jedi Order by training Rey during the time between TLJ and IX. I would have no problem Luke force ghosting if it was at the end of IX. So at least he can play a decant role in this era before finishing his story. Rey could use more help besides force ghosts and old books to restart the Jedi way.

Sadly the last Skywalker is now Ben, and the stories of Luke pre-TLJ I now view in a different light because of what we know is to come.

So sad to see what has happened to this bloodline and also the state of the galaxy. I wish they didn't wipe out the New Republic to the extent that happened in the ST. Wonderful to see a mix between Resistance and New Republic forces. A war where the faction armies were not super one sided. But looks like we are stuck with following....again, the tale of the last jedi in training and the small but growing resistance post TLJ.

The interest I have these days lies in earlier eras instead, from more dark times, PT, to hopefully getting canon ancient jedi in a trilogy.

 

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One thing I've taken from this is that it shows why time jumps get used, so authors don't have to kill off characters their audience really likes.

Although, both Brooks and Feist were the guys for using similar character sets, with a few decades apart, a few times over but they concluded they eventually had to wrap it all up. Feist did that a few years back now on Riftwar, Brooks is about midway through his final Shannara series. Both series had done the 'it's about this, nah, now it's this, nah, this is the bigger enemy' dance a few times. Feist's final answer wasn't bad, don't yet know what Brooks' will be yet.

 

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Double post - Luke Skywalker's Internet Vengeance continues

 

100% agreed

 

Think Mizzlewump really saw an earlier draft of TFA and some things that happened in TLJ were already planned for the first movie.

http://spoiledbluemilk.com/2015/09/04/the-darth-ren-hypothesis-mizzlewump-revisited/

Just saying Luke and the Snoke/Ren Dynamic.

 

A possible variation on Ben's turn

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Scratch Luke holding his lightsaber thinking about killing Ben.

Instead, Luke is the top dog of the Jedi Order and Snoke is the VP. Together, they made the new Jedi Order council. Snoke is a two-faced liar that pushes Ben's buttons behind Luke's back while pretending to be concerned about Ben Solo with Luke behind Ben's back.

The scene is a council meeting between Luke and Snoke. Snoke talks about his fear that Ben Solo has become irredeemably turned to the darkside. A threat to the galaxy that must be killed.

Ben then starts to walk into the Council chambers when Luke responds to Snoke "You think we should kill Ben Solo?" Snoke, knowing Ben is now just out of view but within earshot says "Absolutely not. He's our best student an heir apparent to the Jedi legacy."

Ben barges in to confront Luke in a fit of rage, having already felt abandoned by his parents. Snoke tells Ben that this is not the first time Luke has considered killing Ben. The melee and destruction of the Jedi Temple ensue.

In self-defense, Luke disfigures Snoke. He fights Ben until Ben is prone and vulnerable for a killing blow, but does not strike. Snoke takes advantage of Luke's love for Ben, burying Luke under the destroyed Jedi council chambers.

This gives backstory to Snoke without harming Luke's character as TLJ has. Hardly a finished thought. Just a thought of one of many ways they could have made Ben irreparably emotionally scarred without making Luke the complete opposite of his established character.

Do you want to know the truth about the ST?
Or have you always known?
You know the truth.
Say it.
Say it.

It's a mess.

Disney's filthy junk traders. Sold the saga out for drinking money.
Lucas' vision is dead. In a pauper's grave in a Hollwyood desert.

The ST has no place in this story. It came from nothing. It's nothing.

Let it die. Episode 7. Episode 8. JJ Abrams' influence. Rian Johnson's influence All of it.

I thought they were going to make it better. I was mistaken. Just children hiding behind a camera.

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I actually liked a lot of the twists. It was more the way in which they were executed. Some way too heavy handed (Luke), some a huge missed opportunity (Kylo). I almost wish the ST would have a unifying director's cut in the end to clean up some of the obvious mess of too many cooks in the kitchen.

But I don't want Snoke to still be alive. I don't think Ren was lying to Rey (she said "they were nobody", not him). And Rey having the "nobody" lineage is actually the best answer. The problem was more JJ than Rian in that respect.

But my biggest problem with TLJ is that it made the easy choices. OK. Rian obviously didn't like some of JJ's incomplete setups, so he sold them like a junk trader for beer money. That HURTS the saga tremendously. And if JJ now retaliates by negating what Rian setup, then this whole trilogy needs to be buried in a nameless grave on Jakku. LFL needs to do what is right and demand each director in a saga respect the previous history or we essentially are headed toward the EU in official saga movie format.

 

That seems like a really big stretch.