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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    We are here on Acht-To for the annual festival of the Porg.

    [​IMG]

    Festival of the Porg? They used to barbecue the little bastards.
     
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  2. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Quoting darksiders now huh? ;)

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

    Rey should say this after Kylo, having gone through all the trouble to take over the galaxy, has it all ruined in one short moment when his apprentice, Darth Broomboy, picks him up and tosses him down a conveniently nearby pit. Didn't anyone tell him that darksiders have to spend every second of their lives watching their back (he's probably already realizing this regarding Hux)? They can't even sleep? (see Plagueis)

    We still have no idea why Kylo wants to rule the galaxy so he can do it all over again. There's still a very large leap from "my uncle tried to kill me" to "I want to rule the galaxy." To be fair, Anakin had the same problem--going from "I want to save Padme" to "I want to rule the galaxy." Anakin does have the benefit of not having seen it all go wrong already though.
     
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  3. Qel

    Qel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Having had a few days to think about TLJ and where it leaves the wider new canon...
    This is exactly my biggest issue with this movie, at the end of it we're left in a situation where it just feels to me like everything our heroes fought for in the original trilogy was effectively for nothing and things haven't changed since the OT.

    Luke fails in everything he does, has no children, perhaps never even falls in love, he gives up and runs away to die, comes back briefly then dies alone anyway. Leia has her life's work destroyed by her only son and will presumably have to be killed in the story now as well. Han presumably fails as a father and husband, goes back to being a smuggler and gets murdered by his son. Any other incidental characters such as Ackbar presumably just die along the way.

    Meanwhile in the galaxy Finn apparently wasn't exaggerating as they seemingly blew up the whole New Republic and the First Order having come from comparatively nowhere is now crushing the galaxy with forces equivalent to or beyond the Empire in its prime. It feels like if the Empire had won at Endor then the galaxy wouldn't be any worse off than it is now and a lot of people would still be alive.

    Feeding into this for me are two other factors, firstly the idea that they had planned things out in terms of the wider story and secondly the mysteries from TFA, the build up to it and the subsequent build up to TLJ.

    Up until this point we have had a lot of books/comics that whilst they function as nice relatively self-contained stories set in the SW galaxy they could (and now probably should) be seen as filler and of no real substance or consequence, possible exceptions being Bloodline and elements of the Aftermath trilogy. Take the Phasma novel which I enjoyed, it gave us her background and quite a bit on life in the First Order, yet her parts in the actual movies have been pitiful and mean the novel doesn't actually matter. Whilst I loved a lot of the old EU I was willing to set it aside and give this new canon a good go and see how it turned out. A big part of that was because they said they had a plan, so whilst the stories have largely lacked substance I was prepared to overlook that because I thought the payoff to an extent would be in the sequel trilogy and then once it had been revealed we could go back and enjoy stories that fleshed out the gap in between. Rogue One showed they could make a film fit with what came before and after and it had plenty of material to tie into it, I loved it.

    Unfortunately to me it now seems like if they had any plan at all it was just to get as close as possible to the situation circa end of TESB and destroy anything and anyone that prevented them reaching that point. For example, what is the point of any book about Luke set between ROTJ and TLJ at this point? Anything he does, we know it fails, anyone he trains? they betray him or get murdered and ultimately Luke runs away to an island to die. Leia? we can have all the books on the New Republic we want but it's apparently all destroyed in one scene of TFA so what would be the point?

    Adding to the problems in this area for me are Rey/Finn/Poe/Kylo, the new cast. I love them as characters and think the actors play them brilliantly but Disney have basically cleaned house of everything that's gone before so the story has to sit on these characters shoulders, yet there isn't a great deal there for it to rest on. Rey and Finn prior to TFA/TLJ basically don't have any story and given their backgrounds the room for expansion there is very limited with Poe having been fleshed out slightly more but ultimately isn't quite on the same level of importance I feel. Kylo has had more development on screen than the others I would say, but as they burn everything down to try and turn him into a a newer flashier Darth Vader I only feel he's weaker by comparison to them. Aside from his pathetic tantrums the big thing that stood out for me in TLJ was the moment he woke up after killing Snoke and found Hux standing over him. Vader would have killed that pathetic weasel back in TFA, yet here Kylo keeps him around and also is so insecure he feels the need to lie to him about who killed Snoke - if he's to be the new 'emperor' character mixed with Darth Vader then he has a LONG way to go to reach what has gone before.

    In terms of mysteries lets start with Snoke, we still know basically nothing about him after 2 movies and all the books/comics in which they could have expanded upon it - the character is now (presumably) dead. I see people arguing in various places 'oh but that doesn't matter because we didn't know anything about Palpatine back in 1983 either' - we didn't have to, at that point there was nothing before or after the original films we start the story with the Empire established, the Empire is evil, he's its leader that's all we need to know, his relationship with Vader is expanded upon as the films progress. With Snoke as he presumably existed during the original trilogy, probably even prior to the prequels we needed to know more such as if Palpatine was so powerful did he know about Snoke? how does Snoke compare to him? what was he doing and why does the First Order fall under his sway? I basically have no faith that this will be expanded/explained in a satisfactory way at this point.

    Rey's parentage, on its own this wouldn't be a problem and I don't personally mind her not being related to someone special. Maybe they wanted to subvert peoples expectations but that isn't a very satisfying payoff when you've waited 2 years for answers. Why bother creating so many parallels with the start of Luke's own journey, why bother with the visions, the line from Obi-Wan cut and inserted into them? I don't know enough about the two directors involvement in the production of the two films but it makes me wonder if there isn't some substance to the idea of Rian Johnson just wiping out everything JJ did that he didn't like. As I touched on earlier her background as basically being stuck on Jakku for her entire life prior to the movies makes any room for expansion of her character extremely limited and the revelations about her family only add to this problem.

    Lastly, what was Luke doing all this time? So he's basically run off to die because he failed in everything he did post-ROTJ. Why go to the first Jedi temple? Why is there a map that just happens to lead to him even though he says he went there to get away from everyone and everything? I expected Luke to have basically gone there to learn and then play a Yoda-like role in the coming films, I wasn't happy that he'd basically failed to train any new Jedi but at least held out the hope this could happen going forward once Rey had convinced him to train her. Mark Hamill's performance was great and I'm impressed at how he stepped back into the character after so long, but I completely disagree with the material and direction of the character which I don't believe matches the person Luke had become by the end of ROTJ. Ben/Kylo may be pure evil but he is nothing on Sidious or Vader and Luke faced both of them, felt the temptation of the Dark Side, his fears, but ultimately when the moment came he threw his Lightsaber away and refused to give in or to doubt his belief that his father would turn back to the light. Having been through all of that and presumably only improved his skills and knowledge in the intervening years I just can't see how he would see anything in Ben's dreams that would make him want to kill him.

    I'm sorry this turned out to be much longer than I intended. I realize many people will just dismiss what I'm saying as 'hating' as seems to be the way these days but ultimately this story and set of movies means a lot to me as I'm sure it does to all of you. The feeling TLJ left me with has me uncertain as to where I go from here, walk away, go back to the stories of my childhood in the old EU and films 1-6 or forwards, still embracing the new stories despite my feelings on their direction and lack of actual meaningful content.
     
  4. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    I don't think Kylo even knows what Kylo wants, that was the least enthusiastic throne taking in the history of throne taking. Like " I guess I'm emporer now or something.".
     
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  5. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Still at least from Billy Dee Williams perspective it’s now more likely he will get that call to be asked to be in 9. I mean (being cynical) they’ve got to try an attract the audience to watch someway, it’s not like anyone cares about Rey and co, so it’ll be hey look Lando s back yay and hope that’s enough. It’s not like they have anything else
     
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  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    He's angry. He wants to tear everything down, now. It seems very much like an "I'll show them!" kind of thing.
     
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  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I'm just surprised how someone angry about everything was widely criticized in the PT (Anakin, who actually had his mother in slavery and then dying to be angry about and then Padme) and now someone who is angry about everything in TFA and had no reason to be angry about everything is widely praised.
    Luke trying to kill Kylo helped a bit, but not much. Considering how Kylo was already praised in TFA despite being angry for no reason at the time, I imagine that if Anakin had the exact same thing happen to him (a Jedi Master tries to kill him pre-emptively), many people would use that as criticism on how Anakin was petty and angry about nothing in the same breath they praise Kylo about being deep, complex and having nuance.
     
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  8. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    IMO it's because the writing and acting is better at conveying how emotionally unstable Kylo Ren is.
     
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  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Ironically people who are unstable in real life act more like Anakin--that's why they're not good in social situations, come off as whiny sometimes, etc. Maybe that turns the audience off in the same way such people turn people off in real life, but that's the point of the story.

    It's not supposed to be a "loner looks cool" type of situation that Kylo seems to be evoking, judging by reactions. That's more Hollywood myth than anything reflective of reality. When you look at outcasts who did bad things in real life, they had trouble fitting in, were socially awkward, i.e. more like Anakin.

    Also the writing didn't do wonders for Kylo, especially towards the end of 8
    Where he's raving like a lunatic, shouting to fire all weapons at that man. When the crazy Hux has to say "that's enough" and looks sane compared to Kylo, something's not right.
    This actually reminds me of the catch words back when TFA came out. The catch word back then was "execution" when people pointed out TFA flaws. Another word I'm seeing for TLJ is "nuance". One word type responses that don't really go through the details of the plot (but to be fair, these are also elucidated by the posters in their other posts).

    I'm wondering what the catch word will be for 9.
     
  10. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Anakin was poorly written and acted.

    No one acts like him.

    That's him being emotionally unstable.
     
  11. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Kylo Ren is pretty great at this point.

    I want him to win.
     
  12. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    See, this is the exact kind of statement that makes you realize this Star Wars isnt your Star Wars. My kids arent into this trilogy for Han, Luke and Leia. They genuinely like Rey, Finn, Poe and BB-8.

    TFA wanted to win you back, TLJ is making it super obvious that this franchise is now being made for a new generation.

    Imagine if these movies had been made 1-6 rather than 4-6, 1-3. Everyone that grew up on Anakin and Obi-Wan would be livid at Obi-Wan's death in ANH, and it would be a signal that this story isnt about him anymore.

    This is where we are at. Maybe it's a little bit of overcompensating, but for how long were folks around here proclaiming their desire to see the Big 3 sidelined or killed off to let the next generation take over in the EU?

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  13. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    That’s the one Chewie was roasting over the fire. :p

    I’m probably a terrible person for saying that.
     
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  14. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I feel like this is a trap. Are you trolling me?

    Because I agree about him being great.

    I like how he gets trolled so hard. That's how you handle Kylo Ren.

    Well, there's evidently this from the art book

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    We'll just have to disagree here. I remember back 15 years ago on this very board some male fans confessed that, while they wanted to be like Han and Lando, they were more like Anakin in trying to talk to women. (Awkward, with women calling Anakin creepy which is probably why more people don't confess to identifying with Anakin) There was something there that resonated with them. I'm not seeing that sort of resonance here with Kylo, just people saying he's better acted but not saying he actually relates to how they themselves feel.
     
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  16. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013

    This is exactly how I felt for exactly five minutes, between the time he killed Snoke and the end of the Praetorian duel. For that entire time, I was like "Hey, this dude is pretty cool! I'm rooting for him now!" It passed very quickly once the duel ended. :p
     
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  17. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    iunno I related to Kylo a lot more than Anakin

    I mean, in terms of storytelling I can relate to what Anakin is going through in terms of going through loss and being unable to let go.

    But in terms of Kylo's behavior, his emotional instability, I'll just say I can empathize with that.
     
  18. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    There's a shot in the film of DJ overhearing Finn and Poe talking about the evac transports when they return
     
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  19. Game3525

    Game3525 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Who in the world acts like Kylo then?

    I don't get how people can complain about Anakin being whiny and angsty, but praise Kylo (who is about a decade older then AOTC Anakin and had an easier upbringing),

    Maybe I am just cynical, but alot of this just reeks of confirmation bias.
     
  20. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Me.
     
  21. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Well fair enough if you can relate to Kylo. But I do agree with Game3525 that no one acts like Kylo, and it's hard to say that no one acts like Anakin and then say people act like Kylo.
    Kylo reacted to his uncle trying to kill him by immediately killing a bunch of people unrelated to the incident. Anakin reacted to his mother being killed by killing the group that kidnapped his mother and held her captive (along with the bystanders unfortunately like Tusken kids). I think in history more people have acted like Anakin, i.e. war crimes.

    I can't relate to Kylo much at all, but wrote a lengthy post last month on this very thread on how I relate to Anakin more than Kylo. There's no way I could write such a similar and detailed post regarding Kylo. I am quoting it here:
     
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  22. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Kylo being victorious on all fronts and ushering in a millennium of darkness with Rey and her successor Jedi trying to bring it down through a thousand cuts would actually justify the ST to me in a way Episode IX ending with our heroes victorious and Rey set to rebuild the Jedi Order would not.

    Then we can get EPISODE X: THE PHANTOM HOPE.
     
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  23. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Works for me.
     
  24. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    yeah, both Anakin and Kylo are quite terrible people
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I regret clicking that spoiler