A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

It would be in line with the ANH novelization, which basically had an outline for the prequels in its prologue. The only issue was that it established Palpatine as the first Emperor and Obi-Wan refers to multiple Emperors up to the time of ANH (meaning Palpatine wasn't the Emperor of the OT). Later works ignored this in favor of having Palpatine the only emperor (starting from Marvel comics mentioning Palpatine, and ROTJ novel confirming Palpatine as the current Emperor's name and having him reflect on the good old days of taking over the Old Republic).

 

I prefer the real Skeletor.

 

I think you have to put that on George. Whatever script he'd given Alan Dean Foster hadnt seen the backstory changes that George made to the Empire/Emperor.

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It is on George. Once he decided Vader was Luke's father, having a string of easily corrupted emperors was no longer interesting and he retconned Palpatine as the sole villain--and not under control of others as the novel inplied. And this change was for the better I believe.

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Man I wish he weren't just making it up as he went along.

 

Id rather have 1 person making it up as they go along than multiple. Even though the OT had multiple directors, they followed Georges arc. Ms. Kennedy fills that role now, but I don't know if she has an arc in mind in favor of directorial freedom. Except that has boundaries too like trevorrow found out? Not clear how it works now.

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Goal post just keep moving.

Were we really that clear before, other than Lucas changed his mind and/or contradicted what he said again?

I was frankly sad to see the vision of Star Wars not guided by Lucas, faults and all. Let's also not forget his genius. He pushed the envelope in so many ways.

But George is not a part of Star Wars anymore. By his own choice.

And we all know there was no vision for the OT. He made it up as he went. But...this may come as a surprise... that's how fiction is done. It's all made up as it is developed.



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Yeah I don't think anyone's actually contesting that here... It's just the current framework (Trevorrow is out, JJ is back, Lord and Miller is out, Howard is in) is making the current scenario more chaotic than otherwise.

What's with the overemphasis on things everyone knows, complete with pictogram? I don't understand, and it seems to be bordering on a sort of tone I'm not comfortable with. And the comment that "it may come as a surprise". It's not a surprise to me or anyone.

It's the difference between a writer who had a more overall structure in mind (Tolkien) and CS Lewis, who put in Father Christmas because it was cool (Tolkien disagreed with this and felt a Narnian mythology should be mapped out and not a mishmash). Tolkien still did a lot of retconning, but it was more rule of story than rule of cool.

 

The question isn't "is it being made up as it goes along" (though the suggestion that "all fiction" works this way is not entirely accurate -- the difference between "architect" and "gardener" authors springs to mind. Dammit, GRRM.) it's "how well does it disguise the fact that it's being made up as it goes along".

Darth Vader was settled on as Luke's father until sometime in TESB's development -- early scripts had the ghost of Anakin appearing to Luke, IIRC. However, given the way Obi-Wan delivers the news of Anakin's death, Owen's comments ("that's what I'm afraid of") and Vader being a badass pilot, when it "comes to light" it feels like it was intended that way all along. That's well disguised. So well disguised that some people will still insist today that "Oh well he was always Luke's dad, that's why he's called Dark Father, yada yada"

Leia being Luke's sister? Far less well disguised... but the ending of TESB helps.

And so on.

That being said, I don't really have a horse fathier in this race as far as TFA-TLJ is concerned. I think they hold together well enough and for the most part I enjoyed having my expectations undermined.

As people have mentioned before, it feels kind of like the difference between KotOR 1 and TSL.

And it helps that TLJ is, you know, better than TFA. Significantly.

(At least from what I remember. Maybe I'll change my mind after a second viewing )

 

I find it amusing that this discussion is being had on a forum that is dedicated to the EU, which was absolutely made up as it went along with tons of different people and did a godawful job of disguising it when the authors weren't outright taking potshots at each other.

 

I dunno. I don't think it's especially unfair for people to hold the centrepiece of the franchise to a higher standard. The movies are the SACRED TEXTS.

And it's not like people -- especially here -- weren't constantly calling the EU out. Over and over again.

EDIT: By "here" I mean this forum in general, over the years. Not this thread. I really don't understand where this " you guys all thought the EU was perfect and could do no wrong so your POV can be discounted" take is coming from. That's not what I remember this forum having ever been like at all.

 

It's amusing because whenever the sacred texts of the prequels dared contradict the EU, the films drew the ire for it. Here it seemed there was a large contingent of fans that got very upset when Anakin said there was never a knight in the council (what about Ki-Adi-Mundi???).

But Thame Cerulean is no big deal, in fact let me contort logic to justify it!

The films weren't sacred texts here, the EU was. And it was forgiven for not adhering to the standard fans expect the ST to follow, and that's not because they're films, it's because they've replaced the EU.

And you know what? That's fine. But be honest about it. There'd probably be less heart ache if people admitted there's no way they'll enjoy the ST because they're heart broken about the EU and didn't spend a lot of time enumerating the crimes of the ST to justify it. I don't judge them if that's the case.

 

Why do so many EU fans love Rogue One then? That movie utterly annihilated Kyle Katarn, the king of EU characters.

That alone should show that ST criticism has little, if anything, to do with overriding the EU.

 

TBF the EU conditioned us to expect contradictory stories about the Death Star plans.

It was like coming home.

 

My feeling is that some feel R1 was good and 7 and 8 are not. The fact that this line of reasoning is ignored and that all ST critics must really be Bring Back Legenders is frankly disturbing.

I will see if Solo is good, but im refraining from 9 due to the ST story direction. Solo might be good and I will see it in theaters if it is, I dont care if it disrupts Daley or Crispin.

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I don't love Rogue One either, between how the Rebellion leadership has been handled and the replacement of the EU depictions, though it has been the best new Star Wars film so far.

 

I and many EU fans love it, and it's our best evidence against this idea going around that all ST critics like me are Bring Back Legenders. If Solo is good and I enjoy it, it will be more evidence.

A good example would be if Solo showed Lando to be a seasoned pilot with a military background. This would explain why he was put in charge of the DS2 attack in ROTJ.

The EU just had him as some gambler who got lucky at Taanab, and needed tutoring to fly from Vuffi Raa and Han. Why would the Alliance trust this guy with their attack on the Emperor? I'd be 100% fine if the Solo film overrode this EU background and gave Lando solid military credentials.

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Solo is going to underperform Rogue One (which underperformed VII and VIII) and the narrative will be that it's backlash against VIII -- when VII was an outlier all along.

 

My biggest issues with TLJ for the most part don't even have anything to do with the EU. About 66% of the movies plot is driven by a farcical misunderstanding and two of the main characters ( Luke, Finn) have arcs that are incredibly similar to arcs in the previous film (Luke basically taking Hans role here).

At the end of the day I can see what RJ was going for, and heck I appreciate that he actually tried to make something special here ( unlike the soulless corporate checklist that JJ put together.) but it just didn't click for me.

 

Most of the criticism of 7 and 8 are along these lines, and I have the same issues here. I've seen very little evidence it has anything to do with overriding Legends.

 

I'd ask how Luke feeling really guilty about failure has anything in common with Han in ANH, TESB, or TFA, but I'm afraid to.

I mean I guess the prequels actually sucked since Anakin went through the same arc as Luke. But it explains a lot.

 

Seriously one of my favourite moments in the movie.

Mainly because my mind originally did just go "oh, snow" and totally wasn't paying attention to the fact it clearly wasn't. That moment was made for me and people like me.

Also the gif will get a lot of internet mileage. Especially at r/destinythegame

 

Don't be afraid to ask. Han felt he failed Kylo. He wasn't even trying to look for him. Leia talked him into that. He had regressed into his smuggling ways, much like Luke regressed to his pre-Jedi ways (cut off from Force)

Anakin went through a different arc. Luke became a more mature version of himself. Anakin changed his entire life philosophy.