main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Lit Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread (Tags Required for rumors/spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I said I was sorry. There is no "deathmatch". Again, I said I was sorry and you as a poster was not even mentioned in my post. Just Luke, and the writing of 8.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Where TLJ discussion is concerned, it's always a deathmatch. Not one I'd be participating in, but that does look to be the way of it. Good luck. [face_devil]
     
  3. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    of note: in the commentary track, Johnson points out (I'm paraphrasing slightly) that while the PT was about Anakin and OT was about Luke, the ST is really about two protagonists, Rey and Kylo who are sort of flip images of each other. Kylo does go full antagonist by the end of TLJ anyway, though. But when it comes to baddies in Star Wars, we're certainly getting more of his perspective (and screentime) than, say, Vader in the OT or Paplatine in the PT. One could argue that Anakin's POV in the PT does make it entirely from the bad guy's perspective but he flips about halfway through the 3rd movie, Kylo has been bad since he first showed up but still gets a lot of time devoted to him, moreso than most baddies.
     
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  4. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Yeah -- and even though I still don't entirely understand why Kylo went bad, I sympathize with him more than Anakin. I think that's a combo of the amount of screentime/POV, and the fact that Adam Driver steals a scene every time. You can actually feel some of Kylo's wrath during his tantrums. You can't get that same feeling with Anakin (except the scene with Shmi and the tusken part -- that was ok; in ROTS he sounded like he was reading the script for the first time).
     
    darthcaedus1138 and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  5. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    The only thing that I'm really arguing about is the absurd idea that some people have that Rey has definitively defeated her dark side demons because she rejected a pathetic attempt to turn her (if you can even call it that) and having known the force for a week or 2.

    When the other example of someone turning to the Dark Side we have in canon (Anakin Skywalker) required over a decade of manipulation by one of the most cunning and devious beings in galactic history to achieve, thinking that Rey is somehow past that risk after a week of knowing what the force is and no one actually making a convincing effort to turn her is incomprehensible with common sense.
     
    Gamiel and sidv88 like this.
  6. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    This strikes me as a pretty apt description of most criticism towards TLJ I've seen, honestly.
     
  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    As the stakes get higher, the tone gets darker. 13 dwarves with no plan isn't going to work against Sauron. That's why it became a story where Frodo sacrificed his physical and mental well being to stop him, and God literally had to heal him (sail to west).

    That doesn't mean we turn off the hobbit halfway through. But 8 feels like 13 dwarves with no plan (Rey, broomboy, bungling finn and poe) against sauron. The ending emphasizes the flashiness of being a Jedi without quiet planning and deliberation. Rey rushes off. Finn and poe rush off. Etc.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Vialco likes this.
  8. starfish

    starfish Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Well, now we’ve gone from A New Hope binary sunset and somehow switched into The Hobbit and ends with Frodo in Return of the King.

    I think they’re to many movies in this comparison. :p
     
  9. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    People make a lot of mistakes in Last Jedi but that is a legit thematic point. Arguably the most important correct choices is Rey rejecting Kylo, Poe realizing that they have to survive, Finn embracing his "Rebel scum" and Luke showing up on Crait at the end. Since it's the climax of the film at all that's okay.
     
    Senator Wan, Revanfan1 and nancipants like this.
  10. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    No one is ever completely free of their dark side... as Luke himself learned with his instinctual reaction to Kylo's dark dreams.

    As long as you live, it has to be an active and continual decision to reject the dark side. Recognize it in yourself, accept it's part of you, and reject allowing it to have any influence over your decisions.
     
  11. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

    Sometimes i wonder if anyone watched and paid attention to the Yoda arc of TCW.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  12. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Yeah, I think this is something that was misunderstood by some of the Jedi, especially the Old Republic Jedi, and some people on this site. I don't think Lucas ever intended people to reach full light side/Jedi status and then they're safe, like it's a goal in a video game (you have unlocked Jedi status! Congratulations!). It's something you have to keep at as long as you're alive -- that's even in the Buddhist beliefs that Lucas was taking from. Monks are on a path to Enlightenment; they're not there yet.

    Same with the dark side -- just because you've fallen, doesn't necessarily mean you can't get back up.

    In the case of Rey and Kylo, they're still fairly untrained pupils. Rey is at least trying to find her path. She's aware she has faults. Kylo... I think he has galactic domination and revenge on the mind. He's too preoccupied. I'm curious what his plan is going to be for Ep XI, because he's so used to following other people's orders.
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  13. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    I think they may have left themselves too much to do in 9. The characters didn't really progress as much as you'd think by the end of 8 and a lot is going to have to happen in the final film to reach a satisfactory conclusion regarding both the characters and factions/state of the galaxy IMO. This is partly due to 7 and 8 all happening in close proximity, chronologically, and the only way I can see them achieving said satisfactory conclusion in 9 is for it to be set a long time after 8, with Rey & Kylo having developed a lot off screen in the meantime.
     
  14. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    They may do what happened between 2 and 3. Basically a galaxy spanning war after 8 that lasts for years with the conclusion in 9. Then they'll fill in that war later with an animated series, like they did for the Clone Wars. Leia can be killed during this war.

    Opening of 9:

    Poe: Get help. You're no match for him, he's a Supreme Leader.
    Finn: [turns and smiles] Poe, Supreme Leaders are our speciality.
    Kylo: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things.
    Finn: You won't get away this time, Kylo.
    Kylo: I've been looking forward to this.
    Rey: My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Kylo.
    Kylo: Good. Twice the pride, double the fall.

    The tv show between 8 and 9 will have Rey and Kylo dueling every week, continually retconning when "the last time" they met was. :p
     
  15. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    Haha gold. One of the many stupid things about TCW
     
    spicer and CaptainPeabody like this.
  16. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Yes... I do get the sneaking suspicion that they're intentionally rushing the events of this trilogy to leave room for another. Unless Ep IX starts several years after TLJ, Rey is not nearly a Jedi yet. Like Obi-Wan said, she's still on her first steps.
     
  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    watching Last Jedi on May the 4th (still an hour to go when I started!) and using the DVD that came with the Wal Mart exclusive blu ray combo pack to watch it outside of my home, thanks bundled DVD that I only use!

    Anyway, at the start when Poe points out "Hugs" mother, I always kinda flashback to Armitage's family origins that were revealed in Aftermath. No wonder Hux immediately orders to fire on Poe, his mother is a sore spot. Also I will admit, it took me multiple viewings to figure out that Poe was saying "Hugs" the entire time :/
     
  18. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I kind of feel like Kylo hasn't yet had enough genuine focus to qualify as a protagonist for the series yet, especially in comparison to a Rey and Finn. Finn's pretty much the clear protagonist and heart of TFA, with the most dynamic and significant character arc in the film, with Rey being set up for a greater postion and still having a strong arc with an emotional epoch right at the film's climax. Kylo Ren's got more of a devolution arc in TFA, barely peeling back the mystery of the character to reveal some fruitful ground for exploration...

    ...For which I'll be a Debbie Downer on TLJ and say wasn't explored anywhere near enough to satisfy a protagonist designation for Kylo Ren. Heck, I'm the guy who argues in podcasts and on the board that Rey didn't get enough genuine focus and dynamism to really qualify as the protagonist for TLJ; Luke's the only guy I can really see that applying to in TLJ. Kylo Ren's role in TLJ is almost entirely static on a character level; he's effectively the same tantrum-throwing brat at the end of TLJ that he was in TFA, with the largest change being an exterior promotion. I'd even argue Kylo's Ascension makes the First Order less intimidating because of how static he is.

    TFA setup both Kylo and Rey to be the focus for TLJ, and then TLJ did very little substantial work on Kylo at all, and accidentally underwrote and contorted Rey into unnatural storylines because of that; because Johnson didn't do any significant work to either reveal Kylo's sympathetic history* or to change his character, Rey's stuck showing too much faith, sympathy and trust in the character who violated her mind against her will, killed one friend and maimed another, all while he's still trying his hardest to be an unwavering Space Neo-Nazi and never even offers a token fake apology. Maybe IX can make Kylo a believable protagonist for the ST, but we're already looking at a possibly overstuffed finale here.

    *Yes, we have Luke igniting his lightsaber over Ben, but we've already got Han and Leia's kid delving into the dark enough that Luke can apparently tell his nephew's a burgeoning school shooter and cult leader by sifting thorough his mind, and the film then endorses Luke's reaction by having Ben become a mass murderer immediate afterwards. TLJ portrays a Ben who's more an Enfante Terrible than a true character.

    I tend to think that Rey delving into the dark side, believably anyway, is probably something that may be on the backburner for a sequel to the sequel trilogy; while it makes sense in universe that she could turn to the dark side given time, and while I whole-heartedly agree that fighting the darkside is a life long project, TLJ abandoned any dramatic framework for setting up potential dark side teases with its writing. So any that show up in IX are going to feel underwritten to me if they're treated as serious long term issues from the previous films.

    Rey was willing to forgive and reach out towards Kylo after everything he did in TFA, and aside from one brief, quickly brushed off accusation of Ben being a monster (which he agreed with), Johnson's script avoided any righteous anger or hurt from Han's death, Rey's mind being violated under torture, or from Finn being maimed. So that classic and emotionally logical path to the darkside seems neutered.

    And since the anti-climax to Rey's parentage question relies on her just having to accept something she's always known, we don't have a lot of emotional pressure to give into the dark side there either. Heck, even the dark side cave didn't really seem to do much to show a Rey any potential dark side aspect of herself, K stead just answering her questions.

    It's not that Rey can't go to the darkside or deal with it in IX, it's that TLJ kind of neutered that aspect of her dramatically.
     
    EmperorHorus and Gamiel like this.
  19. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    I don't think Rey ever forgives Kylo for his actions, a huge part is that she's seeing in the Force of him turn and "this could be how we win". They're both using each other. Probably the closest she comes to an emotional connection is after her dark side cave experience and Luke constantly berating her is admitting "I never felt so alone" and Kylo saying "You're not alone". Then they touch fingers and she sees the bright, shiny, Ben Good future so all of her actions from that point on is just trying to go along with the vision to make him turn.
     
  20. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    from https://marcel-mercado.deviantart.com/
    "These pages are done for fun, they're not part of any official star wars project. First of, I liked Last Jedi. I read an interview where Mark Hamill was frustrated at his character's take on the movie, and it prompted me to create this comic. Mark's frustration would've been a better driving motivation for Luke. The sense that Luke felt his destiny tarnished, where he questioned what good he had done. If this was to be the last Jedi, then the moment needed to be epic."

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  21. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2012
    WOW, that's really touching! And the art is amazing too!

    Also, maybe I'm looking way too much into this, but I wonder if the resemblance with Kai Hudorra is intentional?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  22. SWpants

    SWpants Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Oh that is absolutely stuning
     
  23. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Kylo would need to seriously improve his duelling skills if he wants to survive another fight with Rey. She trounced him in their first brawl.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  24. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    And tied in their second.

    I don't think their fight will be the final fight of IX, or even the big fight of IX.

    Maybe something with the Knights will be the Big Fight... and then Finn simply kills Kylo with a blaster when Rey wavers.
     
  25. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I don't consider it a tie when one party is able to get up before the other. If Rey hadn't been in a merciful state of mind, she could have picked up Kylo's weapon while he was unconscious and executed him before he woke up.
     
    Jedi Princess and MrDarth0 like this.