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Lit Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread (Tags Required for rumors/spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    This is new news :p

    Seriously the only thing about twitter that messes me up is how twitter links work on this forum.
     
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  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    In that, they don't load, ever? Or maybe it's just my laptop?
     
  3. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    lol

    More like when there is a thread and when i post the second part of it, it automatically shows the first part of the thread as well.
     
  4. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 12, 2012
    The line in the OT that I think perfectly sets up Luke's force projection is Yoda's "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack."
     
  5. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I rewatched TFA on Saturday and I plan on watching TLJ again soon. The biggest thing I got from my TFA rewatch (first time I've watched it since TLJ was released) is that it's a far lighter film than TLJ, with much more light-hearted, fast-paced enjoyability. But that doesn't necessarily make it better, either, and I feel like a fair comparison is KOTOR with KOTOR 2. KOTOR is a classic, light-hearted adventure in the vein of ANH and TFA. KOTOR 2 gets way, way darker and focuses on some more philosophical areas of the Force. This is really what TLJ does, in my opinion, but I will be interested to see if watching it after I've recently seen TFA will support that.

    I do feel like, oddly enough, while TFA has that "classic" Star Wars feel, TLJ is more of what I want out of Star Wars, because it's different. ESB was very different from ANH, and ROTJ was very different from either of them, and each of the prequels had a unique feel, too. So I definitely do appreciate that about TLJ and I'll continue to support it as a genuinely good movie (just as I will with TFA), though I can see why some don't enjoy it. It has flaws, sure, but overall I'm content with the choices that were made and where the story has been taken (though I'd prefer Luke be alive, and that's the only real negative I have with the ST at this point).
     
  6. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    I think if TLJ had come out ten years ago, I would be a lot more willing to embrace that interpretation of Luke (and Rose) from TLJ. As it is now, I feel like it's just Star Wars' version of "When they go low, we go high" and the liberal obsession with decorum and civility and the moral high ground being better than, you know, actually winning. Admittedly maybe this more reflects my own disillusionment with fine sentiments, especially in the last few years. But it just seems like the sort of hand-wringing of "Gosh, is it really okay to punch a neo-Nazi calling for the deaths of more protesters? If you think about it, doesn't fighting evil make us the real evil? Let's give police officers a Pepsi instead of protesting them shooting the tenth black kid this year!"

    Plus, I've always felt like there's more than a little selfishness to the sentiment of "Luke saves his soul by refusing to fight and let himself be killed." Great for Luke's soul... how about the trillions of people in the galaxy he left behind living under a totalitarian dictatorship that he himself helped enable? To me, it was more than a little bit of the supposedly liberal media figures who love nothing more than clutching at pearls over the latest Trump drama, overlooking how two years ago their deliberate focus on him (and undermining of his rivals) helped put him into power.

    Like, it's a fine sentiment, and as I said I would probably be more embracing of it a decade ago, when we all lived in a more optimistic time, but I think it's not a helpful message to give to the impressionable kids who are coming of age in the actual real world we currently live in - a world, remember, increasingly filled with explicitly self-described Nazis empowered by increasingly heavy-handed and brutal governments who increasingly target protesters and the institutions guaranteeing free societies. And, if those impressionable young kids are anything like most people posting here, they will probably be deeply influenced by the Star Wars media they consume.

    It's bad enough that gutless, craven politicians have already embraced the name of the Resistance and equated it with things like appeasing Wall Street and letting pharmaceutical companies write healthcare policies and making sure to come to the aid of Sarah Huckabee Sanders lest they be seen as anything less than 100% civil. The least the Star Wars movies can do is actually tell kids that sometimes you actually need to win a fight in the real world, not just the moral arena that has no real-world impact and which the other side has absolutely no interest in.
     
  7. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

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    Jun 29, 2003
    I agree with your complaints about what's going on today in politics, but I don't see eye to eye with you on the Luke thing.

    Luke reminded me a lot of Jacen Solo pre-Traitor*, where all he did was sit around and pout about the Force and not act. It's not an exact parallel (Luke gives up the Force because he doesn't trust himself to slip like Vader; Jacen starts getting philosophical about the Force and gives it up because he thinks ultra-caution is the Jedi way), but they're both brought to a standstill by this internal struggle debating with themselves about what is "right."

    TLJ-Luke and pre-Traitor Jacen lost their way when they became too obsessed looking for the "right" way to be a Jedi. If we're taking this to real world politics (which can be tied to morals, since we're all fighting about our liberty and other people's liberty to do/not do this or that), TLJ-Luke is the cranky guy who hides from everybody because he's convinced the world sucks and there's no use fighting, and pre-Traitor Jacen's the person who keeps bemoaning how horrible the world is and why can't we get along but isn't actually doing anything except lamely pouting in the background and offering empty words of altruism.

    I don't think TLJ's message was to give up in order to win, but rather take a hold of the situation with a clear mind without getting bogged down in second-guessing. The same as Traitor. Vergere's major message was "Choose. Then act." Luke and Jacen were bogged down with second-guessing so they chose to not act. The message wasn't "If you think about it, doesn't fighting evil make us the real evil?" -- it was the opposite. Inaction isn't the solution. Luke died because he had to make a really expensive phone call to distract Kylo cuz nobody else was available to save Leia and the Resistance.

    I think there's something to be said about confidence here, although "confidence" isn't a word thrown around much in Star Wars. But it's part of the message. Vergere basically taught Jacen in Traitor about confidence, and to suck it up when you make a mistake. That's what Luke had to learn in TLJ. People who give up fighting make the world a difficult place, like DJ. If you want to get something done you've got to get up and do it yourself and quit moping about how unfair everything is and that you might make a mistake. And then lo! Maybe something will actually get done.

    That said, if I continue on this course of dialog and relate it to the real world I'll probably get banned real fast. So I will choose and act by stepping away from the keyboard and not going full-on L3.


    *I realize Jacen sort of starts to turn in Balance Point when he realizes he can't succeed by shutting himself off from the Force entirely, but he still carried that cloud of moral confusion around him until Traitor.
     
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  8. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    That's not really my impression. I really don't want to sound like one of those people that do nothing but complaining about the PT (as someone who liked the PT I find them highly irritating) so I put my short points behind spoiler
    To me TLJ (and TFA) feels more like they really did not know what they where doing and just throw stuff together. TFA was full of mystery boxes (which had TMU no thought out possible explanation) but Johnson and/or the script writers did not know what to do with them so instead of revelling them as something with meaning or just have them in the background they decided to open them all (more or less) and declare that non of them was important. Peoples motivations also seems to shift from TFA to TLJ (Snoke, Kylo) and/or they forgot what happened to them in TFA (Rey)

    Then we have that they are not that good at explaining what's going on in the GFFA; the whole FO chasseing the Resistance which felt forced to me and the same can be said for the whole "Poe needs to know how to be a real leader and hero and not just a hot shot pilot" which could have been done much better and without having Holdo looking bad or costing the Resistance nearly all people; that Luke's reason for declaring that the Jedi was wrong and the GFFA is better without them feels really shallow; I probably have more points but I'm tiered and can't come up with more right now.
     
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  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    My problem with TLJ is simple:

    It felt like all of the characters had to learn to be heroes again when the entire cast was already a hero. Its not a good idea to attack nostalgia as a concept in a series that is beloved because of nostalgia and made from nostalgia for older serials and concepts.

    * Rey is a hero already and the movies can't even come up for why she's not one.
    * Luke is a hero and they make him give up on life and the universe when he's already suffered devastating losses.
    * Snoke loses the one thing that makes him different from Palpatine in being nurturing rather than contemptuous
    * Finn is already a hero and he gets humiliated numerous times by Rose.
    * Poe gets most of the Resistance killed because he doesn't trust Leia's successor
    * Leia is knocked out for half the movie and deserved to be the one who wipes out the Supremacy (bows head for Carrie)
    * Chewie doesn't get to do anything

    Even the villains get humiliated and they're meant to be threatening!

    * Hux is treated as a joke when he has murdered trillions.
    * Kylo Ren is treated as an antihero bad boy
    * They make fun of his Vader worship when Snokes the one who instilled it
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 5:53 PM
  10. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 20, 2016
    Luke had to learn how to be a hero again in ESB. Hell, he keeps getting it wrong in ROTJ even, until the last few minutes.
     
  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I think people often mistake Luke's standpoint (and for some reason Kylo's) throughout most of the film as the message of it, when in fact the film is actually saying that he's wrong. Luke at the end of the film is the message it intends to send.
     
  12. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2004
    Yep. The Yoda scene is the key. That's one of the most important scenes of the entire film. It’s almost as though a lot of people stopped watching the film when Rey leaves Ahch-To. Straight after, Yoda wakes Luke up. It really is a beautiful scene.
     
  13. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Since like you said I think I would bring this thread into shaky ground if I kept going, I'll just say thanks for a very well written response on a heated topic.

    But more to the point of the thread, I just want to point out that even though I stand by my screed on TLJ Luke's motivations and the message of the movie, as I wrote earlier in the thread, I did very much enjoy the movie overall, and after Solo I still think it's my favorite of the post-OT movies (though I might do a prequel rewatch sometime soon since it's been a very long time since I've watched those). But nevertheless, my enjoyment of it is because of rather than the absence of some very big issues I had with the movie. But I think a film that tries things that are ambitious and different, even if it flubs them (and I don't think TLJ flubbed everything, by a long shot) will always be better in my book than a movie like TFA, which is the definition of trying to be as safe and broad and conventional as possible, even if it nails all of those points.

    One other reason why I was so hard on the movie above also is because, in a way different from almost* every other Star Wars movie, Johnson very clearly wanted TLJ to connect to the real world, both with its meta commentary on nostalgia and fandom expectations, but also its political message (Luke, Rose, Canto Bight). So because TLJ is intended to be something that's a bit more relevant to the real world and the current political climate, I feel like it's more excusable to interrogate its message in a way that, for example, I wouldn't really look for in AOTC or TFA. It's the same way I feel about Black Panther - it definitely tries (and more to the point, has been heavily publicized as) a movie that 'goes beyond' the other Marvel movies in its political message, so I think it makes sense to be more critical about that message than, say, the political message of Iron Man or The Avengers (which to be fair, are also really bad, like with most comic book movies).

    (*I say almost because I think the one exception is Lucas with ROTS very clearly being a specific attack on Bush and the War on Terror. And maybe not a coincidence that there are so many ROTS allusions in TLJ.)

    I actually agree with this, and even though I like the whole ending scene of TLJ, I think it kind of undercuts the movie's attempt to be truly different up until that point, especially with the whole death-by-Force-hologram contrivance to allow Luke to be the heroic sacrifice at the end of the movie.
     
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  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I actually like it because it alludes to one of the defining characteristics of Godhood in so many mythologies - the ability to appear in two places at once.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 7:16 PM
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  15. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    I'm a little confused by you saying both that you agree the film is saying Luke's stance throughout most of it is wrong (though I don't think it's totally without merit, which is where I honestly think a lot of the issues in general come from here; Star Wars fandom generally doesn't do nuance) and that you still stand by your 'screed' about him and the message his actions send. I don't think it's that important a part of the ending that Luke didn't actually physically harm any First Order forces because he was a projection.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 7:21 PM
  16. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey is a hero in a localized way. She saves BB-8, she saves Finn, she helps Han get his life back on track. It isn't until the very end of the movie, when she gives herself to the Force then goes to Ach-To, that she even accepts the idea she has an heroic role in the story; she's just being a good friend until that point.
    He hasn't given up on the universe; he explicitly says the Force is not the sole purview of the Jedi. He has given up on himself, but that's pretty true to the character, he did that at least once a movie until now.
    That might just be your read on The Force Awakens' Snoke; I don't think I would ever describe that guy as "nurturing".
    Even Han calls out Finn for not being a hero in The Force Awakens. "People are depending on us! The galaxy is depending on us!" His arc in The Last Jedi is a natural progression from, as with Rey, localized acts of loyalty vs. altruistic heroism.
    That's... Yes, but it's not like that's opposite something that was established about him in the previous movie (cuz not much was).
    Leia deserved to be the last survivor and see the next generation (her spiritual children!) on to the "promised land". Especially because Carrie is no longer with us, all the more reason that Leia should live on in that movie. "No one is really gone."
    Chewie does a better job flying the Falcon during the final sequence of the film than anyone we'd seen fly the Falcon before him, and he did it alone!
     
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I know it's wrong but it's requiring us to believe Luke would plan to murder his own nephew then abandon his sister to fight the First Order alone.
     
  18. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 20, 2016
    He didn't plan it. And Leia wasn't alone. But better Leia, a capable, proven leader, fights than a Jedi crippled by self-doubt and unable to trust his own instincts. That's just pulling a pin on a grenade and chucking it into your own camp.
     
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  19. starfish

    starfish Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 9, 2003
    The ‘plan to murder his nephew’ is only true if you believe Kylo’s point of view.
     
  20. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    My problem with the ending of TLJ is that it essentially contradicts the main themes of the rest of the film. We spend the whole film learning that A. Heroic sacrifice is self defeating, and B. It's foolish to place your faith in legends.

    Then the climax roles around and everyone is saved when the legend everyone put their faith in shows up and saves the day with a heroic sacrifice that inspires the entire galaxy to fight the first order.
     
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  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Which Luke cops to.

    Which is too little, too late to reverse the damage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 8:50 AM
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  22. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    Yeah, going out to cast detect evil and panicking when the dark side sirens start going off makes Luke look a little better than the stone cold murder angle Kylo went with. But the story still ends with Luke drawing a lightsaber on his sleeping teenage nephew.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 9:10 AM
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  23. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    How would Luke know about the First Order? Even Leia only knows "something" is happening by the end of Bloodline, and the beginning of Luke's exile is at the earliest during that book (and I personally think it happens after, but we don't know for sure yet).

    His sleeping mid-twenties nephew. Who was sent to him in the first place because there was too much Vader in him. Who was actively corrupting Luke's other students to the dark side. Luke went there because despite all that he still had hope. And then his vision shows him Ben doing everything he then went on to do, burning the temple, slaughtering his peers, murdering his father, trying multiple times to murder his mother, destroying an entire system full of planets at once.

    And then yes, he draws his weapon in a moment of instinct and weakness. But we've also seen Jedi use their lightsabers as torches, Ben doesn't know why that lightsaber is on but his first instinct is to kill his uncle without question.

    That's where the story ends.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 10:07 AM
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 23, 2011
    He didn't plan to murder his nephew. He suddenly realised he was in front of baby Hitler and, for a few seconds, considering killing him out of fear for his friends lives, only to not try and kill him.
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I point out again that he didn't do that with ACTUAL Space Hitler, his dad.