A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

You mean he never had a moment of self doubt? Because that's all that happens with Ben.

 

Oh yeah, that part where he went hog wild and beat him down with his lightsaber was just the Jedi equivalent of nice hugs.

Luke considered doing the exact same thing to Vader until the end, where he threw down his weapon and decided not to.

 

No?

 

Hey, he repeatedly said he wasn't going to kill his dad.

 

And?

 

Only he did. Almost killed him on the Death Star. And stopped himself. It's not surprising he'd have to stop himself again.

 

That required a very particular and specific trigger though. In contrast, TLJ is far more vague as to why Luke has come to the point in his life where he is on the Path of Lucien.

 

And I bet if you asked him at any time apart from that exact moment he's say the same about his nephew.

Except it's a worse trigger. He explains that he saw everything being destroyed.

 

Again, The Last Jedi doesn't need to explicate Luke's vision because we in the audience have already watched it come true. In Return of the Jedi, Vader threatened his sister. Kylo Ren threatens his sister, murders his brother-in-law, slaughters his students, and destroys the New Republic. Compare the threats to the reactions and Luke has grown incredibly in the intervening 30 years; we wouldn't be having this conversation if Return of the Jedi Luke had that vision because Ben would be dead.

 

Yeah.

Luke essentially gets a vision of the ST.

You'd thus think that those of us who aren't hugely into it would have more sympathy for his reaction as a result, not less.

 

In terms of how they convey it, Jedi immediately works for me in a way TLJ didn't, despite Hamill's stellar performance.

But if the idea is that Luke can give in for a split-second to the idea of striking someone down in anger, the better example to me would be the start of the DS2 duel when he goes not for Vader, but for the Emperor. Given where TLJ has gone, it works better, as Kylo has become Emperor.

Actually, running with that really changes that whole concept. Before, a lot of the trouble is around the idea that Luke wouldn't kill his remaining family, but could imagery of Kylo as he becomes over-ride that momentarily? I could go with that.

What's unfortunate here is there's nothing more beyond "everything being destroyed", so it's not clear how far Luke saw - all the way up to Ep IX perhaps?

On a different note, I do love this summary:

And this is who some wish to be redeemed? Er, good luck with that.

 

Suggesting what? Luke cops to a version of events that didn’t actually take place, except for inside Kylo’s head?

 

Well, he did. Luke was trying very, very much to kill Darth Vader, then he saw his own dark instincts and stopped. For a moment, Luke's dark instincts told him to kill Ben then he stopped. Frankly, compared to what Luke did to Vader, Ben got off light!

Anyway, semi-related

 

In response to Luke being a monster for definitely trying to murder his nephew in his sleep at a vague threat - as evidenced by the ignition of his lightsaber - I posted in another thread these examples of Jedi being similarly monstrous by bringing their weapons to bear in response to vague threats.

I'm sure there are examples others can think of in Rebels and Clone Wars.

 

Kylo has demonstrated far more redeeming qualities than Vader.

 

Vader did really monstrous things decades ago and committed whole hog to the dark side, never entertaining the idea of coming back until Luke plants that seed. Kylo keeps making the choice to be evil and actively rebuffing the light.

 

Does that make him less redeemable or more?

 

Kylo's whole modus operandi is "I found a hole! Let's keep digging!"

or, in Kylo freakout speak, "No, you're still HOLDING ON!! LET GO!"

Anyway, also semi-related

 

I think Vader wanted to come back the moment he knew it was possible that he could be forgiven, whereas Kylo keeps spitting on the idea of coming back, and it's so far making Kylo at the very least a very different problem from Vader.

 

At the end of the day I think Kylo Ren actually believes the First Order is the good guy.

 

Whereas Vader thinks the Empire is bad and that he is a bad person who deserves the punishment of having to do bad things forever. Vader's moral universe is very different from his grandson's.

 

Huh, when I watched TLJ again today, I noticed a small detail I've missed before: When Leia pulls herself back to the Raddus's ruined bridge, she passes through the still-functioning holographic image of the Supremacy, which then seems to flicker and die. A minor thing, but I really love it. That whole scene is great.

 

Not really sure what you're getting at with the "triggered" bit, but that last part about the puppy eyes isn't anything Kylo's done in either movie so far. He doesn't even ask Rey to exonerate him.