A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

There's the fact that his main method of emoting is a thousand yard stare with lips pouting and tears just barely beneath the surface. It looks like Adam/Kylo is just standing there trying to cry. Does that count as puppy eyes? He does it a lot, though almost always when no one is looking.

I haven't seen anything redeeming about Kylo.

Of course we're probably working with different definitions of redeeming. Entertaining me is a redeeming quality for a character, so Vader had lots.

 

Kylo might not hate han. Think, Hans offer to Kylo isn't realistic. The republic would imprison Kylo for life or execute him for hosnian. If kylo doesn't kill han, he will be on the run from the republic and fo for the rest of his life. The fo might give kylo a fate worse than death for sparing han.

Kylo likely killed han out of self preservation than actual hatred. Hes not lying when he says he doesn't hate han. That's all there is to it

Kylo is still evil, but it's more like a burglar killing witnesses so he can get away unrecognized than actual hatred for victims.

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I don't think Han would turn over Kylo Ren to the New Republic. He's just asking him to desert and help stop Starkiller.

Kylo Ren chose the FO over Han.

Not because he felt ANY inclination to be redeemed, because he was asked by Snoke to kill him.

 

Han can't run from kanjiklub or jabba but he can run with kylo forever from the republic AND snoke?? Han has a bad track record of this and kylo knows it.

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I never got any sense that Kylo actually hated Han. It would have made more sense if he actually hated him, which I don't think he did. It was a senseless murder.

 

To take a difficult real world example, this would be like someone running away from home to join a terror group, regretting it maybe but now having no choice but to continue killing as ordered. There may not be hatred but now there is no choice. We see this in the news.

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Kylo killed Han to prove his dark side bona fides to Snoke. I don't see malace, which is why Kylo's answer to Rey "I didn't hate him." and "Yes, I am" ring true. Snoke repaid him with "The deed split you in two!" "You're just a child in a mask." Then Kylo killed him too! That'll learn ya, Snoke! Our supreme Lee-Dah is DEAD!

 

Jj has it all figured out. We'll see in 9 that kylo didn't actually kill any temple students, it was draco moefoy the bully and his posse who did and joined kylo in running, and kylo couldn't stop him.

Snoke killed hosnian, not kylo. Han was dying anyway and kylo killed him in a prearranged agreement like dumbledore and snape. 9 will show kylo only actually really killed snoke.

Seriously though killing doesn't always involve hatred. James bond, himself written based on spies, kills because it's his job. Thats it. We see in the news too many instances where killing is just random without hatred or even reason. High government assassinations, they want to start a revolution etc

One assassin outright said if he had twitter to start a revolution, he would not have killed a leader in the 70s

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Thats killing from fear not hatred. My point stands. Remember the question was whether kylo hated han.

I said kylo had no choice if he wanted to live. Obviously if he or anyone really accepts death (or crippling, blinding, brain damage or whatever the price for disobedience is) there is always a choice

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People pay taxes that go into drones that kill people often innocent other than being in the wrong place. That is why many feel a certain country hates them, but that country's citizens may not feel hatred. But those countries citizens can choose to refuse paying taxes and go to jail.

People may have to terminate a pregnancy that would otherwise be fatal. That does not mean there is hatred. But the person could insist on the baby being born at the cost of her own life, and this has sadly happened in real life.

I hope this isn't offensive, just to demonstrate where my point of view originates.

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I actually love in Last Jedi how it basically fast-forwards to the big final confrontation (Kylo Rey & Snoke) a what is just a wee bit past the middle part of the trilogy. Johnson basically pushed it to the ending and there's still half a trilogy left! And I did think Kylo did "turn" for all of 4 minutes when I first watched it but him just using as an excuse to double down on evil makes sense for him.

 

You're welcome to prefer hatred to indifference, but you can't make them the same thing.

 

I don't because I was actually interested in Snoke and have no reason to believe Kylo Ren will defeat the New Republic's remnants like I want.

 

I had a completely different take on that scene.

Kylo loved Han. As much as he tried to convince himself otherwise, he loved his father. That's why he had to die, because in the twisted dark path Ben Solo was going down, love was a weakness, he couldn't afford to love, because if he loved, he could still turn back, and if he turned back he would never fulfill the legacy of Darth Vader.

Han Solo could turn him with love, Han Solo was turning him with love. When Ben said "I need to do something, but I don't think I have the strength to do it." he was literally asking Han to help kill himself. Ben doesn't want to do it, he hates himself for it, but he forces himself to turn on the lightsaber, because in the end he decides that his need to fulfill his own warped destiny outweighs even his own love for his father.

It was a great scene in the development of a truly messed up and scary villain. At least till TLJ decided to try to make him super sympathetic for some reason.

 

I mean, sure, ultimately there's little difference in that you end up dead either way.

Sure there is. That's what cold blooded means. There's no hate or anger involved.

I'm sure assassins and other contract killers don't hate their victims, they're just doing a job. I'm sure there's no hatred when an executioner executes a prisoner. Etc etc.

But it makes Kylo's murder of Han all the more strange. It's a senseless patricide. Done for no real reason. Which is completely ridiculous. He doesn't even really want to do it, he just does, like "meh". He goes through with it without any real conviction.

It's one thing to kill your father because he was an ***hole, you hate him, and killing him would satisfy you. It's one thing to kill your father for tangible power; ie to take the throne, inheritance, etc.

Kylo's murder isn't one of these things. He's not even pumped for the power it would supposedly bring him. He doesn't revel in the power afterward, because he doesn't actually feel it, because it didn't come to him, because he didn't actually want to do it. There's no power in killing off your father if you just regret it. It's not really motivated by Snoke, either.

I disagree with this, though. Kylo definitely had a practical choice: go with Han. There was a legitimate chance for that to work out. I've heard your counterargument and I don't buy it. Han and Leia still have influence, they could work out a deal for him, or just use their power to protect him themselves. He could go to Luke. He could hide out on that island with Luke. Any number of things. It was a real option.

 

Yeah, I figured that the bridge scene was basically Vaders moment aboard the DS2, except instead of pitching the emperor down the shaft, he decides to toss Luke instead. Essentially giving Ben one final chance to turn back, but unlike Vader he fails it miserably.

 

Kylos thing is fear from what i see, not hatred or indifference. He killed out of fear the way pettigrew in harry potter did.

Rey said it best--kylo fears not becoming as powerful as vader. He killed han because of this fear--snoke told him the killing would give him power. And whether kylo admits it or not, he also fears the pitiful plea deal or fugitive life ahead of him if he runs off with han. And snoke will find him and wont be merciful. Theres a reason the grand inquisitor in rebels chose to die rather than face vader and Palpatine for his failure

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When Kylo is cornered or frustrated he does seem to get murder-y. Or slice up a console or two.