A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

The Force had Luke attack Ben so that Ben would join the First Order.

So Ben could destroy the Evil of the New Republic.

 

That xavier outcools luke? Comic fans have vs contests all the time, its part of the fun. Trek vs wars, x men vs jla etc

Recent articles joked deadpool is cooler than han solo: https://variety.com/2018/film/columns/whos-cooler-han-solo-or-deadpool-1202822948/

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This hasn't been fun for a while. So many bad faith arguments, equating Luke with a mass shooter's alleged bully, saying he planned to murder his nephew, calling a twenty-something young man with murder in his heart "kid" or "teen" to lessen his culpability.

I might be able to see the joke in it if it weren't identical to half the bad takes in this thread.

 

Well im sorry you didn't like the joke. These are fictional characters and not real people so i didn't think it would be touchy. Will be careful in future

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What about Mark Hamill's other performance in Last Jedi?



Actually I totally didn't know Hamill did the mocap for the guy as well!

https://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-mo-cap-performance-canto-bight/

The director obliged. “Rian made a little cameo for Mark,” Morris said. “We brought him after the main shoot to our ILM and performance capture stage in London. We spent an afternoon with him, staging those moments with Rian. That was quite bizarre.”

Morris continued, “We actually built the gigantic wire frame BB-8 that was a little to the right side so that Mark was the same height as the toad dude. So, we’ve got this enormous BB-8, like the Christmas bauble, that’s made out of wire. I think Mark had a great time. And we leave that as the basis for his performance ideas for the character.”

 

I actually would have liked one character in Star Wars to do that Joker laughter from Batman the Animated Series, voiced by Mark. It could have been subtle enough that it would go right by the general audience and only be recognized by fans. Or maybe it would get a nasty letter from Warner Bros and DC.

 

The dude does let out a crazy, near-Joker laugh when the Fathiers get lose and he gets sprinkled with coins

 

One step further: Obi-Wan uses a lightsaber to solve a bar fight (Luke's first experience of Jedi action I guess), and is what he builds his brief tutelage of Luke around with the remote. What happens in the hut is what Obi-Wan taught him. What happens at the end is what Yoda taught him.

 

Lucas came up with what exactly? And George didn't make the ST, so whatever ideas he had before he sold Lucasfilm are irrelevant now. In the end, the final decisions of what will or will not be in the ST were made by Kennedy and the directors and writers. Lucas himself stopped attending the TFA development meetings after JJ started ignoring his suggestions and story.

Let's be honest here, we all know that if Lucas would have been directing and writing the ST, it would be a very different set of movies. Perhaps better than what we have now, perhaps worse, that would be in the end subjective as always, but definitely very different.

And neither Obi-Wan nor Qui-Gon were killed because they would overshadow Luke and Obi-Wan in their respective trilogies. They were killed as part of the Campbellian heroes journey, so the main character can grow after loosing their mentor. Its a very common storytelling trope since ancient times. In case of the ST, the role of the mentor dying so the hero can grow, is actually Han in TFA for both Rey and Kylo, and then Luke for Rey again in TLJ.

Luke's role in TFA was intentionally minimised, so he would not overshadow Rey and the other new characters. If I remember correctly, JJ even admitted this himself in some interview after TFA came out. So RJ had to come up with an explanation in TLJ for what Abrams did with Luke in TFA, cause they never bothered to plan the whole trilogy in advance, which in my opinion was a big mistake (yes, I know George did the same, but it worked for him IMO).

I'm not sure what you mean by "if it were the same mistake, Ben would be dead"? If you refer to Luke attacking Vader in ROTJ, he stopped himself in that case as well, and in the process showed his father that dark side isn't stronger and you can turn away from it. So yes, it is the same mistake, but with very different consequences.

My problem with the ST Luke is his regression. Luke didn't grow into a better person in those 30 years, he regressed. He made decisions and mistakes like everybody, but while some people learn from their mistakes, Luke ran away from them. I would have thought that Luke has more self-responsibility and courage in him to at least admit his failure to his family, if he's not willing to fix it himself. But the Luke we got in TLJ didn't even have the courage to go find his sister and tell her what happened. That's pathetic. That's like babysitting your kid nephew, not paying attention for a few minutes, your nephew ends up seriously hurt, and instead of admitting what you did and take responsibility for it, you run away to another country and stop having contact with everyone. That is in its essence what Luke did in the ST.

So no, I'm not making the same error of judgement as Luke, I'm pointing out that the Luke we had at the end of ROTJ would never run away and hide in face of responsibility and consequences. I'm not disappointed that Luke for a second thought about killing Ben, we all fail sometimes, its how we deal with it after. And there, Luke turned out to be a coward and a failure. And that's just sad. I really don't know what RJ and KK were thinking when they thought that's okay. And having Yoda point it out to Luke in one scene is not enough. Yoda should not need to point this out to Luke in the first place!

Some heroes and myths don't need to be deconstructed. Luke was one of them in my opinion.

To answer you last question, because we all waited for it for more than 30 years? From the moment ROTJ ended in '83 we wanted more adventures of Luke, Leia and Han. They were the reason why we're Star Wars fans! That's why we had the entire EU, cause we wanted more stories with them! You think people were excited about TFA because of Finn and Rey? They were excited because of Harrison, Mark and Carrie reprising their most famous roles. All I wanted was one more adventure of Han, Luke and Leia together on the big screen. I waited for it and dreamed about it for 30 years. Now I will never get it. Thank you Kathleen and Lucasfilm.

 

I was. I can't imagine I'm so unique as to be the only person who was either.

I don't understand, if you love Luke Skywalker so, why do you ascribe to the worst possible scenario regarding him? Why do you say he took no responsibility, when his exile is based on him taking TOO MUCH responsibility? Why do you say he told Han and Leia nothing; how else would Han know the story he tells Rey and Finn? How else would Leia know "it was Snoke"? How do you think R2 got back to Leia in the first place?

And if Luke is still in the exact same place, why does Kylo have all his limbs? Where was the blow after blow after blow of Force-fueled rage? Where is the fury that felled a 6'6" cyborg titan?

And why do you and others keep comparing a grown man with murder in his heart (24/25 year old Ben Solo) to a child? If Luke Skywalker were standing over my bed with a lightsaber, I would assume the temple is under attack and he has already had to defend himself. Ben reacts the way he does because he is already plotting evil. Stop taking his side.


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I think that's because ANH did not have as many mysteryboxes and had a storyline that was finished in that movie: making it easier to do the next movie.

 

I'm glad you were excited about TFA for the new characters, but I think most people who grew up with the OT as well as the general audiences were probably more excited about seeing Luke Skywalker and Han Solo back in action. Though some of the new characters did grow on me, especially Finn and Poe.

You're right about Luke sending R2 back to Leia, which is probably how he told Leia and Han what happened after which R2 shut himself down. But how did Luke know it was Snoke? Did he read it in Ben's mind? Did he do some investigating before he went into exile? Did he knew about Snoke before the whole massacre? There's potentially a really good story here. I would be interested in reading a novel about what Luke did and thought the moment he woke up in the rubble of Ben's house. Someone like Matthew Stover could pull it off...

But back on topic. Luke took too much responsibility in his own eyes, when in fact what he was doing was a mistake and he does realise this by the end of the movie. I know what RJ was doing with the character and I understand Luke's journey through the movie. My issue with it is that I fundamentally disagree with the story of the ST. I think it was a huge mistake to exile Luke and make him into MacGuffin in TFA. I think RJ had a very difficult job in explaining why Luke was on that island and he did the best he could. You either say Luke was stranded there, which makes him look weak and/or stupid, or you say he's there voluntarily and then you have to come up with the reason why. RJ went with the dramatic self-imposed exile because of too much guilt and feeling of responsibility. But the problem already started with JJ and TFA. The character of Luke Skywalker should have been used very differently in the ST. He should have had an active role and been part of the new trilogy from the beginning in my opinion. Mark Hamill's idea of how Luke should have been revealed in TFA would have worked for example... But we can't change the past, we can just try to make the best sense we can from what we got.

About your last point, we still don't really know what exactly did Luke see in Ben's mind (and if it was even true) and how far at that point has Ben already fallen into darkness. I think this is one of the most important issues of the ST right now and Lucasfilm will have to be super careful how will they decide to explain this (if ever). Cause this could really hurt the whole point RJ was making in TLJ if they mess this up.

 

[Ben's mind] The remake of 'The Wicker Man' was better then the original
*Luke draw lightsabre*

 

He came up with the idea of Luke being in exile, and he remained onboard long enough to approve concept art of Luke and the Jedi temple on Ahch-To. You claimed Abrams and Kasdan invented Luke's exile; they didn't.

Source on that?

Eh, not so much. Obi-Wan's death was only added to the script during production, as I recall, at a time when Lucas had already read The Hero with a Thousand Faces and based the film's structure directly on Campbell's monomyth; Obi-Wan's death wasn't a part of it. And I don't recall a great many actual myths of the sort Campbell cites in his book that require the mentor to die. The mentor helps the hero cross the threshold into the supernatural realm, and there's usually an atonement or reconciliation with the father figure, which is often the mentor. Death isn't necessary, mythologically speaking.

Anyway, my point's basically the same as yours. Luke is the hero of the OT, so he needs to grow. A super-powerful Jedi Master hanging around interferes with that -- why didn't Obi-Wan use the Force to destroy the Death Star? Why didn't Qui-Gon train Anakin? Why didn't go find Luke? Why didn't Luke duel Kylo? -- so they have to be removed from stories like this, or otherwise restricted in terms of how much they can influence the narrative, like how Ghost Obi-Wan suddenly can't interfere in Luke's duel with Vader.

 

maybe of interest Eleven-ThirtyEight - Connective Tissue: How The Force Awakens’ Characters Inform The Last Jedi – and Vice Versa

 

For all I now have a standing rule of not talking TLJ too much, had to pick up on this:

Somehow, in the thousands of posts about TLJ, over six months later, I don't recall seeing this point before and I like it quite a bit. Doesn't solve it all but it helps.

 

While I love the film and don't see much in need of "fixing," I actually like this suggestion. I'd modify it as: on his way out of the hangar with his payment from the FO, DJ sabotages the Supremacy's shields again, in a manner similar to how he got in in the first place but this time bringing them down completely. Holdo, who was about to die in a hopeless battle to protect the transports, sees that their shields are down and hyperrams them instead.

 

That's a fair point, yeah. And the fact that Ben reacts to it so badly is because his heart's already been turned. He knows why Luke's standing over him with a lightsaber. Ben's not oblivious about what's just happened, and so his only course is to lash out; he's been caught. Kinda like Anakin once he lops Mace's arm off; there's not really any turning back for him at that point, so when Luke Skywalker, Slayer of Evil comes with lightsaber blazing, Ben knows the jig's up.

 

I don't think that's the case. I think Ben Solo believed that Luke, his parents, and others have all betrayed him. He's paranoid and ambitious but he makes his turn because he believes they plan to kill him if he can't live up to their expectations.

 

Then Ben is really the dumbest villain in history. If I were Ben and evil, I would immediately take a photo of Luke standing over me with a saber, post it on the holonet, and watch while Luke's life and reputation are utterly destroyed. Knowing I already had a following among the pre-KOR (the people who joined Ben in the actual ST events), I'd coach them to make fake testimonies on how Luke abused them etc. I'd probably have a sobbing interview on a holonet talk show saying how I'm traumatized for life and how I and my fellow students can never study under Luke again.

Then after Luke is fighting off claims of inappropriate behavior etc in the courts, I'd invite Snoke to be the new interim Jedi Grand Master and immediately start training all the students in the Dark Side in a perfectly legal way. Then after we graduate as full Ren Knights, we'll join the First Order.

This would be like Draco framing Dumbledore for misconduct, getting his dad Lucius Malfoy to take over Hogwarts, then legally turn Hogwarts into a Death Eater training ground.

 

Quick work for all of a split-second. Ben Solo, the fastest holopaparazzi in the Western Reaches.

 

Considering that real life millennials sleep next to their phones and Ben has Force speed (he quickly pulls the saber into his hand), yeah he can do it.

Heck, Ben probably has the phone camera pointed right on his bed and all he has to do is press the button via the Force. Think he didn't already know Luke was sneaking up on him in his sleep doing a little mind violation at night?

If Luke claims the photo is photoshopped, then Ben's already turned Luke into a liar. Either way Ben wins.

If I were Ben, I'd probably have a full fledged video recording camera pointed at my bed (with streaming capability). Luke's finished the moment he ignites the saber.

 

If he felt that, wouldn't there be a hint of it on screen? When Rey asks why he killed Han Solo, he says nothing about fearing him, nor anything about Han's expectations. He killed his father because he thought loving him, needing him, made him weak.

Even with Luke, nothing about expectations: "He sensed my power, as he senses yours, and he feared it." The truth, just not the full truth, removing the fact that the "power" Luke feared in him was the corrupting power of the dark side.


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