Lit Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread (Tags Required for rumors/spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I'm hoping Snoke is an ancient Jedi or unrelated to Palpatine. The new generation should deal with new threats.

    As for Kylo Ren, he's not a Sith so why would he care about Vader turning to the Light?

    He should have a philosophy different than the Sith.

    Perhaps "Order at all costs."
  2. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    I hope there is a connection between what happened to Leia in Bloodline after the Vader reveal, and whatever set Kylo off. I could sympathize with him then, at least to a point.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  3. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Jacen was never meant to be a serviceable villain. He was just the tool of Lumiya's revenge against Luke Skywalker. Once Lumiya was dead, it was only a question of how much damage Darth Puppet could do with his strings cut before someone smashed him to pieces.

    Seriously, everything went wrong for the so-called Darth Caedus once Lumiya was gone. He lost at Kashyyyk and kept losing right up until Shedu Maad where he got too injured to retreat successfully.
  4. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    If this is a totally new threat, then they shouldn't have called it Episode VII, Episode VIII, Episode IX, or the Sequel Trilogy.

    The new generation either has to overcome Snoke as the last remnant of Sidious/Vader, or the root cause of Sidious/Vader


    He should since they say he isn't Sith, but doesn't so far.
    Last edited by Ghost, Jun 16, 2017
  5. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    Yeah, this is what I was getting at before about "Episode I of the Second Saga". I actually would not object to these films just being presented to us as a separate, new story taking place decades after the end of the existing I-VI Saga. But if they're selling it as a continuation, then there needs to be some continuity - and while the First Order may be a descendant of the Empire, if its Supreme Leader himself just materialized out of thin air sometime after ROTJ with no connection to anything we've seen previously (like, not even just a former Imperial officer or Inquisitor), that's pretty damn discontinuous.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Jun 16, 2017
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  6. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

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    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    Come on now. Kids are reading this thread.
  7. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

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    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    That's not fair. They aren't regressed, they took different character paths.
  8. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    I am sorry, but Luke going into hiding after his first attempt to rebuild the Jedi fails, Leia being the only who took the threat of the remnants of the Empire, especially the First Order, seriously, and Han basically being ANH Han again is the definition of regression.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    I initially excused Han going back to smuggling because I chalked it up to grief, but thinking about it...that was stupid.

    He was a racing magnate in Bloodline. Seems that, given that it was a legal activity, it would take less effort and therefore be easier for the grief-stricken Han than going back to smuggling. So I'm not sure what the point was, beyond saying "Look, ANH Han!"

    And I had fewer problems with the whole idea of "ANH rewritten" than some did.

    I was fine with the idea of Han and Leia separating after what happened, in fact, Kylo's behavior not straining their marriage would have been storybook-level idealistic. And I liked Leia, wish we could have seen more of her.

    I was also fine with not seeing Luke until the end, and with his going into hiding a la Obi-Wan and Yoda, but I'm definitely not interested in Rey having to save him from himself.

    Show Spoiler
    Definitely not interested in the idea of his losing his **** and blowing up a hut. That is monumentally ****ing stupid.
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  10. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    I feel like people saying Han "regressed" in TFA are taking a pretty superficial view... But as far as the original context goes, it's actually kind of a moot point, because you can point to lots of characterization that I genuinely don't like (such as the somewhat caricatured Big 3 in Marvel's main series) and it's still a heck of a lot closer to recognizable than, say, Luke as Mr. "compassion is for those who deserve it" - and, just as egregiously, the narrative vindicating him.
  11. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Zeta he didn't go into hiding. Why? Because we KNOW they didn't have a reason for it. We won't know until Episode VIII. Luke could have begun a Quinzos.
  12. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

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    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    "Compassion is for those who deserve it. The Emperor's chief minion deserves it. My corrupted and misguided nephew doesn't."

    What a crappy book.
  13. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    OT ends with:
    OB1 - dead
    Yoda - dead
    Darth Skywalker - dead
    Emperor Sidious - dead

    So why is the ST ending with Luke, Leia and Han dead anti-SW legacy?

    What if Luke left the "skirmish" because Snoke hinted he'd kill Ben if Luke didn't leave? Luke felt there was still good in Ben.

    OB1 and Yoda's stewardship of the Republic left it in rubble after 1,000 years of peace and prosperity. They were part of the problem, but not the source. Han and Leia may have been part of the problem with Ben, but perhaps not the source. Also, Skywalker DNA.

    I have quite a few hangups with the ST, but I have to also admit this to myself: Pre-TFA, I wasn't sure how they were going to keep it connected while at the same time not undo a major theme of 1 to 6. With the EU, the outside threat always seemed the best angle. And as with anything in fiction, the actual execution almost always outweighs the larger theme. So even ideas I'd think would be *lame* could end up being the greatest reward with great execution.

    The biggest problem is of course the revelations that JJ Abrams did, in fact, go to the mystery box well once again. Fortunately, he's not finishing it. Unfortunately, he has tied the hands of the writers/directors of 8 and 9 with things they might have set up better for "their" ending. There were quite a few lost opportunities in TFA.

    Loved the Rogue One presentation of good and evil not being so straightforward, so hopefully that creeps into 8 and 9.
  14. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    BTW, I do want to take a moment to apologize for helping start up another round of LOTF-bashing here. I don't need to make it clear that I mean it, but it's certainly a whole lot less on-topic than discussing Snoke was.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    I want the presentation of good and evil to be as straightforward as it was in the OT. I did not think Rogue One deviated from that; I was fine with Saw's group being anti-Empire but not being squeaky clean themselves. I did not feel that presentation undid the foremost idea that the Empire was bad and the Alliance is good, especially given that the Alliance as a whole separated itself from Saw's guerrillas due to their militancy.

    The ST should definitely present the idea that Leia and Luke are on the side that we should be rooting for.

    I would not say that it's "anti-Star-Wars" to end the trilogy with Luke, Leia and Han all dead. I would say that it's a bit anti-Star-Wars to end the trilogy with the idea that the Skywalkers are terrible and must be saved, along with the rest of the galaxy, by someone else. That contradicts the ending of ROTJ, as does Luke turning to the Dark Side. A new threat emerging that shakes up the galaxy again--not a contradiction to the end of ROTJ. I don't expect a happy ending to stay happy forever, but I do expect characterizations and themes to stay consistent.
    LelalMekha, Kylun and Barriss_Coffee like this.
  16. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    TFA (as much as I love it) gave us bum Han, renegade Leia, their screwed-up heartless son, and angsty hopeless Luke and his dead school. We don't want them responsible. And most likely, I'd bet George Lucas himself wouldn't either.

    Presumably Snoke is to blame. Ok. How? How is he so powerful he brought the Big 3 (and their next gen) to their knees? Cuz it's either his fault or theirs -- Leia says it's him, bet then, out how did he outplay them?

    If anything, I want them to make us hate Snoke (even if I can't take that name seriously). I don't want a villain I can respect, like Palps. I want a villain to really despise. I don't really hate Kylo -- he's too dumb to hate. I want to hate Snoke because he destroyed the OT's happy ending. I already sort of hate him for that, but I want him on screen so I can have my Two Minutes Hate -- no wait. More than 2. Give the guy his 15. I want him to go out like one of those baddies who make the audience cheer wildly. Like Mrs. Weasley vs Bellatrix. BAM!
  17. Todd the Jedi Mod and Soliloquist of SWTV

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    Alright, this is thread is finally as fun as the TFA thread was. [face_party]
  18. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    @Barriss_Coffee: Yeah, that's another reason why Snoke being a villain-shaped hole is unsatisfying and doesn't really match the ESB Palpatine comparison.

    Well, it's not just simply Saw's rebels=bad other rebels=good - there was also everything with Draven and Cassian's orders and their whole cold-blooded attitude towards intelligence operations. (Not that I disagree with you overall; it's just that I rather liked the element of them not just shunting all of the moral compromises in a war story off onto one designated 'antihero' group.)
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  19. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    And that is what makes it even worse.
  20. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    One thing I was hoping and which was alluded to in the novelization was treating Snoke as Sauron rather than Morgoth. The idea Snoke came to Luke, Han, and Leia as a friend as well as a Jedi Master or perhaps a redeemed Dark Sider before settling down with them to build the First Order from within the Republic. It might even have been the case Snoke was actually redeemed by Luke but fell back into Old Habits.
    Voltron64, Barriss_Coffee and Vialco like this.
  21. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    Snoke: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Vader?
  22. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    So Snoke came to Luke as Annatar the Fair and turned out to be Sauron the Abhorred in a pleasant disguise? Well we know that Luke was desperately seeking Jedi Lore. So Snoke would indeed have something to offer to get him in the door.
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  23. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    If they actually wanted to show our heroes having believable weaknesses rather than make up them, I think you could play with the fact Luke's belief in redemption is both his greatest strength and something which Snoke could have used against him. Even if he was an old Dark Side Wizard reeking of evil, were Snoke to present himself to the Last Jedi as someone seeking redemption, he'd probably be accepted as an old friend and brother.

    It's also my theory Kylo Ren's Vader worship was in part due to the fact Luke probably didn't condemn Vader as much as he might have given his Prodigal Son-like view of the Force.

    Which isnt' WRONG mind you but something someone like Snoke could use or misinterpret for his own ends.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 16, 2017
  24. TheAvengerButton Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 4
    This is the kind of stuff I can get behind. I hope at least​ that The Last Jedi helps to fill some of the gaps we have in the story to help get us more used to the aesthetics of this new expanded GFFA.

    Sent from Hell--depending on whether or not it exists.
  25. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    What if Snoke presented himself as a Republic era Jedi that went into hiding like Yoda and Ben? Snoke offered to help Luke make the connection to that era. Sometimes Luke even defers to Snoke on some of the teachings. Meanwhile, Snoke was just using the Jedi Temple to build his Knights of Ren waiting for the moment to flip the switch. First task: Kill any Jedi that couldn't accept the "larger view" of the force.

    Maybe Snoke even would privately steer Luke away from talking too much about Vader and the Sith, so he could then tell the likes of Ben Solo one on one with the framing that Luke was keeping it from him. Maybe even hint that he had secret talks with Vader about overthrowing the Emperor and put things right, until Luke came along and ruined those plans. Now we just have endless chaos, thanks to Luke.

    Then Ben sits at the table and hears Han and Leia laughing about that time they saved Luke over the Death Star, Hoth and Bespin. They are doing it in a "we can laugh about it now" way, but Ben is just hearing how incompetent Luke was.