ST Episode VIII vs Avatar 3

It lost its luster with whom? How do you know?

 

I don't think most people figured out Avatar was Dances with Wolves in space. Only us online internet nerds did.

 

I think everybody pretty much knew it from the start. They just didn't care. A good story is a good story.

 

What I'm trying to say is that mainstream audiences nowadays probably don't know what Dances with Wolves is sadly.

 

Yeah, but there comes a certain threshold where they go a bit overboard with the self righteousness. The movie would have been infinitely improved if it had been a little more nuanced.

I mean, ok James, we get it..... tree huggers are good and the military and corporations and the white males that run them are evil...

 

Did Tolkien go overboard when he hammered the same message into Lord of the Rings?

 

Peter Jackson didn't film Tom Bombadil in Fellowship of the Ring for a reason.

Take that as you will.

 

I always figured it was because that section diffuses the tension and grinds the narrative to a halt. It works in the book but the exclusion from the movie was a no-brainer. I'm not really sure what your point is there.

 

My point was he was a character who taimed nature from running evil (saving Frodo and gang from a tree that was about to eat them) but never destroyed its natural beauty, instead calming and then cultivating it to the perfect vision of nature many people see. Suppose you could call him a gardener who used something more akin to science than magic (which is kinda odd since Tolkin left him a greater mystery and less explained than the magic users who got tons of back history and explainations), but in a very nature is awesome kinda way.


As to why Jackson cut him Yes and no that grinding the narritive to a halt was the reason. In an interview Jackson always admitted that was the final reason why he was cut. However he also said he was always in the original draft and budget reasons forced cuts to happen in the first place... but he wanted to include him in the extended edition though again budget reasons prevented it, adding that even wanted to add him in 'later' once it never happened. I can only assume he means in a Star Wars Special Edition kinda way.

Though back to Tolkin, while he may have hammered it in endlessly, at least he was very good with nuances being far more subtle. He had a whole spectrum of 'nature' destroyers, ranging from Sauron in the East to the Elves in the West... and every group between being different to the degree they went. Also the destruction and/or state of nature was more an annology to the morality of the group, no different than other franchise having other analogies to seperate their light side and dark side.

 

Funny, I don't remember seeing a "white men are evil" message from Tolkein. In fact, I remember quite a number of white men among the protagonists.....

 

Well I'm not really sure that was Cameron's point either, but fair enough.

Although... Saruman the White... Hmmm...

 

Curiously, I don't remember a "white men are evil" message from Avatar. In fact, I remember quite a number of white men among the protagonists.

 

Really? Who? I remember one character who literally abandoned his life as a white male to join the natives but I sure don't remember any white men among the protagonists. In the movie I saw, the climax was a bunch of white people fighting a bunch of blue people (plus that one Hispanic chick).

I think there was that one white guy who was an Avatar but his host body died (or something like that)... so, besides him, who constitutes your "quite a number of white men among the protagonists?"

 

It's a little convenient to rule out the main character in the movie just because his Caucasian body dies at the end, and I guess Sigourney doesn't count because she's a woman, but there is also this guy...


Edit: I don't know if it's just my computer but my images keep disappearing for me, so if it isn't showing up the actor's name is Joel David Moore.

 

Was more of a rip off of Fern gully

 

The protagonist, plus all of the scientists that worked with Sigourney Weaver.

He literally abandoned his life as a white male, eh? Must have been offensive! Remind me--what exactly did the main character do to "abandon his life as a white male"? Can you specify what this "life as a white male" entails?

 

The guy gave up his white male identity for the final battle, and it became permanent at the end.

That's correct. Sigourney Weaver does not count as white male.

Ya he's the guy I was talking about who was the guy who had his na'vi body killed (or something like that).

So, in summary, you say the white male protagonists are:

1) The main character, who we all know gave up his humanity and fought as a na'vi
2) A woman who gave up her humanity and fought as a na'vi before dying (that fact that I asked for white male protagonists and you had to mention a woman kinda proves my point, now doesn't it?), and
3) That other guy who gave up his humanity and fought as a na'vi but had to "come back" to humanity when his avatar was killed

Yeah, that sure represents "quite a number of white men among the protagonists"

 

Well I wasn't the one who said "quite a number" That was your phrase which Yubnub turned in a way that, while not entirely accurate, was still fairly appropriate in context. The fact is that the two main male protagonists of the movie were white men, and there were other scientists who were good as well. I just don't think race is the crux of the issue in that movie. It's about the way you think and how you act, not the color of your skin.

 

I know one thing , as scifi fans how lucky are we to have two massive scifi movies too see at Christmas.

 

Warcraft will either be awesome or awesomely terrible.

 

I hope it's successful for one reason... I want a StarCraft movie.

 

I hope it's successful for one reason...better video game movies in the future.

 

Not to mention the writer and director of the film was a white male. I have to agree with you and Count Yubnub, I don't think Cameron was saying 'white males are evil' at all.

 

I quite enjoyed Dances with Wolves; I enjoy space movies. Put them together with some of the most beautiful effects ever created? I don't get why I hear bad things about it. Sure, if you didn't like Dances with Wolves you probably didn't like this one - but why should it be bad because it's a similar story? Harry Potter is pretty much the same hero's journey as Star Wars, and I still find it enjoyable.

I almost strangled every one of my students who said that to me. I told them all to go watch DWW - uncultured swine.

 

Lol so ferngully doesn't have almost the same exact story? And iv seen DWW, i didn't know watching kevin costner movies makes you cultured