Epsidoe III: Cliffhanger NOT Conclusion

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by the_sky-walker, Jun 17, 2002.

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  1. the_sky-walker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    While many expect Episode III to be the movie that answers all the questions and mysteries of the Star Wars Saga...I simply would hate if that where in fact the case.

    Why pray tell? Because that would in a large chunk greatly discredit many of the things in the OT that were considered "new" and unique. I do happen to believe that the PT is being made to ASK the questions that OT can answer and not the other way around.

    If you were assuming that I have a particular incident in mind, you would be correct. Perhaps the most shocking revelation in the OT was the truth that Darth Vader was really Luke Skywalker's father. This was drama at its best not only for the character but the audience as well, for we were just as shocked as Luke was.

    Now George Lucas has stated many times that Star Wars is a serial of sorts and was always meant to be seen in order. The problem with many of the people's views who I have been reading is that many expect Episode III to come right out and show that Anakin IS Darth Vader...what a mistake! That totally stupefies the revelation of TESB to a mere, 'So...what else is new? Poor Luke. He didn't know that Vader was his father. Now stfu with your screaming.' ;)

    I know it is a lot easier to criticize and be a nitpicker, which in all honestly I AM doing. But what I really think needs to be done with Episode III is to leave the big cliffhanger of the movie and the Saga in general, is the fate whether or not Anakin dies. Meaning Anakin's presumed death after the lightsaber duel with Obi-Won should be a mystery...with this "new" character of Darth Vader opening up a new cliffhanger of who the hell he even is.

    I believe to keep up with the episodic, serial feel of the movies George needs to leave the audience wondering whether or not Anakin is in fact alive. Think of how well it carries on to the OT as how the audience is left wondering in ANH why Obi-Won isn't being honest with Luke with what the audience believes to be the truth that Obi Won "killed Anakin, not Darth Vader". Thereby when TESB rolls along we will understand what Obi-Won meant and make the revelation even that more poignant.

    When watching these movies, I always try to keep in the back of my mind that this Saga is not only catering to the present generations, but to the 100's of generations after. At my present age of 16, I thoroly look forward to watching the Star Wars Saga with my future kids, and having them be kept on the edge of their seats wondering what will happen next. Stuff that is painfully obvious and seems stupid to us in the PT may in fact turn out to be a startling revelation and brilliant plot twist for future generations. What I wouldn't do to wipe my memory and watch the Star Wars Saga from Episode I-VI, and with each revelation making the whole arc come together to form one perfect puzzle. If this is as GL states one long movie, we need the PT to ask the questions that the concluding OT can answer. One of the best moves for George in the PT so far was to the leave the more in depth analysis of the force to the OT, instead going over and over it again with the PT. I could go even more in depth of my rant in talking about whether or not Leia should be entirely revealed in Episode III?.but then I would fear you would think I was being anal ;).

    Am I nitpicking?.....
    Yes!
    Am I right?.....
    .....Well, I guess that is for you to decide :)
  2. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well, technically, it will answer questions we don't know that were presented in Episode I and II, but for the most part, you're right, Episode III is not the ending. And it would be weird if Lucas treated it so.
  3. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I sort of think that he should leave Anakin's "death" a mystery, but then the Vader-Kenobi banter during their duel in ANH would make no sense. Pretty much every word out of Obi-Wan's mouth in ANH would just be confusing and non-sensical.

    While it takes away from the surprise of ESB to know that Anakin = Vader, ANH wouldn't make sense unless you know. Because after seeing the PT, you would know that Obi-Wan did not have another apprentice.
  4. the_sky-walker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    After a couple of busy weeks, I have returned to this topic. I watched the OT again and I have to say...it does work leaving Anakin's fate a mystery.

    I don't think the banter between Obi-Wan and Vader would not make any sense....it would be more mysterious. It would be playing with ones head, making one question and wonder who the mysterious Vader really is and what the heck Obi-Wan was indeed talking about. It would merely be setting things up for the big revelation of who Darth Vader is in TESB and leave more of cliffhanger that many believe ANH didn't really have.

    Now after watching TESB, leaving Anakin presumed dead only strengthens the shocking and emotional revelation that Vader is Luke's father, a 100% more.

    "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father"

    "He told me that you murdered him" (forgive me I know that is by far the exact quote.)

    Now the audience seeing this for the first time would expect Vader to tell Luke that Obi-Wan murdered Anakin, thus manipulating Luke to question his dear old friend who first game him the knowledge of the force. After all, if Obi-Wan was lying to him and he killed his father, which side of the force really is 'the dark side'. Yoda also warned Luke of a manipulation like that from the Dark Side.

    "No Luke...I, am your father."

    But as soon as the audience would hear that...it would be an "Oh my God moment" and everything in the past would click in that instance. I get goosebumps just thinking about it as I type this. It would also emphasize how far Anakin has really fallen, that one wouldn't even recognize who he has become.

    I sincerely believe that if George Lucas really intended this to be a 6 hour film and wants these movies timeless...it is going to need some surprises left when the Episodes 4-6 come into play when watching them in order. These are after all episodes...
  5. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    I think there will be surprises in Episode III. Big ones.
  6. Hatter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 4
    I've always despised these discussions about "leaving Anakin's fate uncertain" and "not fully revealing he's Vader".

    Frankly, I DON'T CARE about the 20 people who don't know the revelation from ESB.
    I want this movie to satisfy ME. I don't want to think, "well, I don't like it, but think of the audiences 20 years from now!"

    Almost EVERYONE knows that Anakin is Vader, and Luke's father. It makes more sense to make Ep. III for the people who know this, rather than the VERY SMALL MAJORITY who don't know this fact. Frankly, if they don't know by now, they don't care at all.

    This talk of not revealing Anakin = Vader is rubbish. It will be made perfectly clear to the audience. The shock in ESB will still be there, but it will be because Luke finally learns the truth. We will be shocked that Vader finally revealed it.

    The entire PREQUEL SAGA is about how Anakin became Darth Vader. Everyone who is interested in the Prequels knows this. To not fully reveal it in III is the ultimate unsatisfying cop-out.
  7. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    If we already know that Anakin=Vader, why do we need it spelled out for us in Episode 3? It's redundant.


    There are already enough hints in Episode 2 to lead to the obvious conclusion that Anakin is going bad. In Episode 3 there will be more such clues and I'm sure some subtle and not so subtle clues that directly link Anakin to Vader. But we don't need as scene where Hayden's scorched face is fitted with the mask. This can be hinted at without actually showing it thus preserving the mystery for audiences down the road.

    Face it folks, audiences in the future will probably only have the "hated" SE's and will get used to them. Once the people who saw it in 1977 are all gone, no one will give a hoot in heck about those changes. Likewise those people will appreciate the mystery of Vader=Anakin being somewhat preserved in Episode 3. Lucas should do what is good for the saga, not what people today want him to do. Sure it should be entertaining, sure things like Boba Fett are great, but if the saga is to become "timeless" it has to be aimed moreso at future audiences rather than just merely us.
  8. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    I like the idea of of leaving Anakin's destiny at the end of Ep3 up in the air. It will make for a much more interesting saga, when watched in 1-6 order. Other aspects of the plot, however, work better when watched out of order. Yoda's character, Luke's character, explanation of the force, etc.
  9. shibby932 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    The more I think of it, the better the idea seems to work. For instance, it is almost certain that one of the last scenes in ep. III will be one with Vader and Sidious. I envision a conversation that include such quotes like "With Skywalker dead there is nobody left to oppose us". And then there is the conversation with Vader and the Emperor in TESB. It would add new meaning to "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi". That would basically tell the audience that Anakin was dead, making the "I am your father" quote even more powerful. Yes, the 99% of the world that knows Vader is Luke's father would know the truth, but it would insure continuaty in the saga.
  10. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    While I agree that leaving his death a mystery fits in better with the series as a whole, some of the dialogue in ANH wouldn't make sense if you watch the PT and know Obi-Wan's life history:

    VADER (to Kenobi): "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."

    That would make no sense to someone who had seen the PT but not TESB and thought Anakin was dead. Anyone who watches the PT knows that Obi-Wan only had one apprentice. Also:

    OBI-WAN (to Luke): "Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil."

    Again, this would seem bogus to someone who knew Obi-Wan had no other apprentices.

    It could work from the standpoint of using confusion to grabs the audience's interest, but if some guy named Darth Vader just appeared out of nowhere at the end of Ep III, and then all of a sudden Obi-Wan in the next movie is saying he trained him, the surprise would be ruined, anyway.
  11. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    shibby932

    Wonderful post. I like that idea. :)
  12. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    I just don't see how keeping it a secret works in context of what Ben says in ANH. I think the surprise of the revelation in ESB is Luke's surprise in finding out. The audience will learn the truth in EPIII. This shifts the focus of the OT to wonder why is this being hidden from Luke and will he ever find out the truth.
  13. Lady Phoenix Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 4
    I think that it's possible to have cliffhangers in Episode III without involving Anakin's turn to the Dark Side. They could leave the fate of the Jedi up in the air, and/or they could leave to outcome of the Clone Wars up in the air. But I think it's important to reveal what happens to the main character before the end of Episode III. Otherwise, the story won't ever be complete!
  14. Jabachile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2001
    star 4
    I think there will definitely be a cliffhanger, like the old Sci-Fi serials that influenced GL. I'm guessing that we'll never find out what becomes of Darth Sidious...
  15. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    shibby932- Nice lines!!

    stormcloud8- "VADER (to Kenobi): "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."

    That would make no sense to someone who had seen the PT but not TESB and thought Anakin was dead. Anyone who watches the PT knows that Obi-Wan only had one apprentice."

    I have to disagree with you here. I think that that line would become nothing more than foreshadowing similar to the "Anakin, why do I get the feeling you'll be the death of me" and "We'll follow your career with great interest" lines. A line doesn't have to make sense the moment it is spoken, but can be explained later in the story. So when the audience sees that Vader=Anakin in ESB that line would then make sense to them.

    "OBI-WAN (to Luke): "Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil."

    Again, this would seem bogus to someone who knew Obi-Wan had no other apprentices."

    I agree with you on that line. That one will be harder for the audience to swallow. They know that Obi Wan only trained Anakin and never trained Vader, especially if Vader pops up out of nowhere. There cannot be any "from a certain point of view" on that one".

    It will be interesting to see how GL does explain this.
  16. shibby932 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Yes, I know there are some flaws in leaving Vader's identity a "secret". I'll be the first person to tell you that. But look at it this way.

    If everybody knew that Vader was Luke's father, then what's the point of the big revelation in TESB? Remember, when Lucas originally wrote Star Wars in the 70's, he wrote out the whole saga. If he knew that he would expose Vader's identity, wouldn't he just make it common knowledge that the father-son relationship was there? It just doesn't make any sense.
  17. cratylus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    I once thought that the transformation of anakin should happen between episodes III and IV, for the same reasons as those mentioned here. However, this is no longer possible and is not necessarily desirable.

    In episode II, Dooku tells Obi Wan that a sith Lord called Darth Sidious controls the senate. We all know this already, but the revelation still has dramatic effect. We are also led to wonder, upon discovering that he too is a Sith Lord, why he is telling the truth to Kenobi.

    My nephews, having seen I and II, watched V the other night. They already knew about yoda and recognized him. they loved the scene where he meets Luke though because they felt like they were in on the Joke.

    Really the shock of these scenes can only happen once, and after that you enjoy them precisely because you do know waht is going to happen. For those watching the series in order, the question will be why Vader thells luke the truth, and why he does so at the time: is he merely trying to seduce Luke, or does he want to go with him at least on some level?
  18. Jedi_Master_Koni Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    I think that Obi-wan's lines in ANH would make the fact that Vader is Anakin painfully obvious anyway, so there's no point in leaving it as a cliffhanger. It's already known that Sith change their names when they turn, so that will explain why he's not called Anakin Skywalker. Seeing him fall into a pit of lava will explain why he needs life support (end of RotJ). There are several Darth Vader action figures out that actually say on their description his backstory and how he falls into a pit of fire. Actually, I found out about it by reading the description on the 12" Vader figure from 1996. There's no point in leaving it out of the movie. If you want to surprise your kids, show the movies out of order like Lucas did.
  19. Old_Metal_Monster Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    "I do happen to believe that the PT is being made to ASK the questions that OT can answer and not the other way around." the_sky-walker

    Actually, I disagree. The PT is being made to ANSWER the questions that the OT has brought up.

    How did Anakin Skywalker become Darth Vader? How did Kenobi and Yoda escape with Luke and Leia? What happened to Luke and Leia's mother? Who the hell is The Emperor? How did the Empire swallow the Old Republic?

    Who appreciated the battle between Yoda and Dooku the most? The Fans of the OT. Sure it looks great as eye-candy for the average cinema-goer... But to the Fans it was something special to see Yoda in action.

    In order for the Skywalker Saga to be appreciated it must be watched from IV, V, VI then I, II, III. Regardless of what George Lucas has said.

    So, chances are, this being the Last STAR WARS Film... it will/should be a conclusion to the Saga that began with Episode IV.
  20. k-man Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 3
    I think the Anakin's Death Is a Mystery thing can work in EP III without contradicting anything from the OT, IF George has Anakin become Vader BEFORE the Obi-Ani duel.

    Follow me here...

    Darth Vader is Anakin's Sith name. It has nothing to do with the armor or the way we see him in the OT. It's purely his evil self. If in EP III, Anakin renounces the Jedi and becomes a sith by the name of Darth Vader, then what Obi tells Luke in SW and ROTJ is still true (from a certain point of view).

    THEN a human (non cyborg) Vader fights Obi-Wan at the conclusion of EP III. Obi-Wan is victorious, we (and he) think Vader is dead, and the movie ends.

    Then lo-and-behold, EP IV starts and there's Vader, alive but in this big mask and suit.

    This is just a theory, but I think it covers all we need to fulfill the idea of a cliffhanger without compromising the OT too much. The only thing uncovered is the I AM YOUR FATHER revelation, but hey, you can't have everything.
  21. Jabachile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2001
    star 4
    That's exactly how I imagined it! I think Lucas will make that first entrance in ANH more dramatic, and your way seems perfect!
  22. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    I don't really see the point of that, K-man. You introduce a new surprise (the idea that Anakin/Vader didn't really die at the end of Ep3 like we thought), but then as soon as we hear the name "Darth Vader" in Ep4, we know the whole story, no more secrets.

    Wouldn't it be much more effective to see Anakin turn to evil and then be "killed" by Obi-wan? Then we see Vader in the OT and we don't know who he is until the revelation in ESB. I like it this way the best, but unfortunately this means no Vader suit in Ep3.
  23. k-man Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 3
    True, MarkDil. I agree that would be better but I don't think any of us could walk away from EP III accepting that Darth Vader doesn't make SOME kind of an appearance, at least in name, if not in suit. I kind of feel like he HAS to be in it. Besides, if Obi-Wan kills evil Anakin, how does he know about "Darth Vader" and where would the conversation in ANH come from? Do we leave it up to the 20 year gap between trilogies which will never be filmed?
  24. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "True, MarkDil. I agree that would be better but I don't think any of us could walk away from EP III accepting that Darth Vader doesn't make SOME kind of an appearance, at least in name, if not in suit. I kind of feel like he HAS to be in it."

    I have to admit that I would be quite disappointed if Vader was not in the movie in some shape or form. I'm sure that I also speak for many "fanboys" as well. Vader needs to be in the film even if it "hurts" the saga in the long run, even if his presence negates "I am your father"'s (and there are ways that Vader's appearence can be done so that we do not know for sure that he is Anakin) emotional shock in ESB or else Lucas is going to get tared-and-feathered. ;) And he knows it.
  25. k-man Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 3
    This conversation now has me thinking, which would be better/which would we prefer: the cliffhanger or the conclusion?

    As fanboys and girls, we expect to see certain things in EP III like Vader and babies Luke and Leia, but as some one pointed out, if you were to watch the saga in Episode Order, I-VI, cliffhanger obviously makes for a better viewing for someone (our future kids for example)who will probably only know star wars in I-VI order.

    If for example, EP III shows Padme pregnant and only shows baby Luke, then ROTJ will have the same surprises for future viewers that it had for us. Same goes for the Anakin/Vader ESB discussion. BUT will EP III be a disappointment to us all if there's no Vader or no Leia?
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