ESB (pre-SE) - the mangling of a movie score

Just finished watching the OT (pre-SE) on my old VHS tapes (yes, bad picture quality, deteriorating signal, etc.). One particular bone is still stuck in my throat.

ESB has a fantastic score (even if I personally like ANH's better). But what was done to it in the editing of the film is nothing short of shocking.

The booklet attached to the SE soundtrack already prepares us for the fact that some substitutions of cues were made in the final film. The two mentioned are "Imperial Probe" for the opening scene of the movie, and the concert suite of The Imperial March for the middle of "Imperial Probe".

But, to my horror, I found that the opening chords of the concert suite March replaced virtually every occurrence of the theme in the film. That is, every time the action returns to the Starfleet, and JW did some form of the March, the edited film has those same chords straight out of the concert suite.

I thought the beauty of the scores was the incredible variation that JW conjures up on the different themes. Doesn't re-playing the same piece sort of defeat that?!

Another horrible moment was when Rogue Squadron goes out to search for Han and Luke. JW wrote a wonderfully rousing cue for this - "Snowspeeders Take Flight". But in the finished film, the first half of the cue is replaced by the "tense" part of "Hyperspace" - a cue that is in the film in entirety in its proper place anyway. The segue between the two cues is non-existent - simple cut-and-paste! Grrrr......

I can accept that in the film certain cues were not used in the end, because GL felt that silence was better (there's already a thread about that here, so I won't go on) in the particular scene. But if you decide to use the score, and there's a (very good) cue written for the scene - why jury-rig something else onto it?! Is it some kind of perverse identification with the Falcon ?

 

Regarding the specific accusation of lifting music from the Imperial March concert suite, I'm not sure what you are saying is entirely accurate. While JW used the Imperial motif many, many times in ESB - including several scene transitions to the Imperial Fleet - I think this "copy and paste" job happens only once in the film. I don't think you can justify saying "virtually every time." If you listen carefully, the Imperial theme shows up several different times throughout the course of the film, in varying arrangements and often intertwined with other themes. Many instances are done more subtley than others.

I also enjoy the way JW's method of motif scoring and, largely, this is intact for ESB. It hasn't been mangled because of a few cuts here and there. While it's unfortunate that composers original vision wasn't the priority for the final cut of the film, the score is still great.

And keep in mind, this is not an isolated case, film music is almost always edited to fit scenes - sometimes much more than in ESB. It's just that we rarely get to see the original vision of the score. Thankfully with the SE CDs, we do. Most of us know the hack job known as The Phantom Menace - Ultimate Edition (which represents the films final cut of the score). It would be much easier to present a case for score mangling with Ep1.


"But if you decide to use the score, and there's a (very good) cue written for the scene - why jury-rig something else onto it?! Is it some kind of perverse identification with the Falcon? "

You know what, if George Lucas, Ben Burt, or John Williams feel it's necesary to move music around to make the movie better (either for sound editing reasons, or for the pacing, or whatever reason) I am usually content with their decision.

Before I got the soundtracks and only had the film to judge the score by, I thought the music used in the Snowspeeder's entrance was really bitchin. So when that cue shows up in the film's climax, it's fun to return to a somewhat more familiar piece of music - and hear it resolve itself.

I don't think using that cue is some perverse identification with the Falcon and I don't think you'll find anyone who does.

"Another horrible moment was when Rogue Squadron goes out to search for Han and Luke. JW wrote a wonderfully rousing cue for this - "Snowspeeders Take Flight". But in the finished film, the first half of the cue is replaced by the "tense" part of "Hyperspace" - a cue that is in the film in entirety in its proper place anyway. The segue between the two cues is non-existent - simple cut-and-paste! Grrrr...... "

Hmmm, I think I've seen another thread on this same topic somewhere else....


-MoffJake

edit: typos everywhere!

 

I agree with MoffJake. When I finally got the ESB SE soundtrack, I was pissed that it did not have the music from the snowspeeder search that I knew from the film since I was small. I was also pissed that it did not have the opening titles and the music from the opening sequence as it appears in the film as well, but that's another story

 

None of those things have every really bothered me. But the mangling of the score in the SE for the scene with Vader returning to the Executor certainly does.

 

While JW used the Imperial motif many, many times in ESB - including several scene transitions to the Imperial Fleet - I think this "copy and paste" job happens only once in the film.

Twice, actually. The introduction to Vader's Star Destroyer, about twenty minutes in, and the transition from Yoda lifting the X-Wing out of the water to Vader choking the Imperial (in the original version; it was restored to what JW composed for the SE).

Aside from the snowspeeder search and the opening sequence being altered, the only changes to the rest of the score (in the original version of the film) are removal of pieces: sequences GL decided to leave scoreless, as JW actually pretty much composed music for almost every frame of film. But once Han and Luke are rescued, there's only the one alteration later in the score (for the original version; the SE features many alterations to account for the addition or extensions to sequences).

 

The introduction to Vader's Star Destroyer, about twenty minutes in...

Wasn't this the track that the Imperial March was originally meant to underscore? If so, than it's not really cutting and pasting from Imperial March.

Or do I seriously need to stop smoking crack?

-MJ

 

The SE is both blessing and curse - while it restores some of the originally scored Star Destroyer transition cues, the bastardization of "Hyperspace" is unforgiveable. I cringe every time I see a Lambda-class shuttle because of it...

 

Wasn't this the track that the Imperial March was originally meant to underscore?

It was basically the same music, but the cue JW composed for the sequence was milder. GL liked the hard, militaristic sound of the concert suite, so he cut the cue JW recorded and substituted the suite in its place, up to the moment the scene enters the Star Destroyer, at which point the cue as JW wrote it returns.

 

It's not nearly as bad as TPM's bastardization. Anakin's Theme is played when the Gungan's are captured. Yeah, I'm sure John Williams intended it that way. And the jumps during the end battle just screams out "This movie was edited at the last minute!!!!!!" What makes me even madder is that we get those lousy edits preserved on the "Ultimate" edition, and none of what John Williams originally intended for those scenes is heard. Did you know John Williams had composed a theme for the Queen, which I'm guessing was recorded? But I have no idea how it sounds because I don't think it is in the final film, and thus not on the "Ultimate" album. However, we do get the "Movie Dialogue Version of Duel of the Fates" :rolls eyes: Is there any word on a better expanded soundtrack release for the movie? And does anyone know how much of John Williams score for the movie went unused? I heard that John Williams scored several cuts of the film, which I'm guessing means there is a lot more unused music than the OT. That is what makes me so mad about the Ultimate Edition. That we never get to hear all that great, unused music because it isn't in the movie.

 

Williams had composed a theme for the Queen

Interesting. I'd like to hear it.

 

DarthTorgo what does that rant have to do with the ESB score? Try staying on topic a bit.

 

Yes, it does, because I think TPM's score was butchered far worse than ESB ever was. But I am glad we get to hear the
"proper" edits on the Ultimate Edition soundtrack.

 

I think TPM's score was butchered far worse than ESB ever was. But I am glad we get to hear the
"proper" edits on the Ultimate Edition soundtrack.

What are you talking about? The UE is the bastardized version, the one that's been chopped to pieces, not "properly" edited by anyone's definition, aside from maybe Jeffrey Dahmer.

 

I think DarthTorgo was referring to the music and flow that we did not get on the OST. Things like the proper music following the Main Titles...

We all know that some of the editing for the TPM score was butchery. Overall though it is good to have most of the music from the film.

 

<<I think TPM's score was butchered far worse than ESB ever was. But I am glad we get to hear the
"proper" edits on the Ultimate Edition soundtrack.


What are you talking about? The UE is the bastardized version, the one that's been chopped to pieces, not "properly" edited by anyone's definition, aside from maybe Jeffrey Dahmer. >>

I was being sarcastic. But for some people, TPM's soundtrack was properly edited, because that's the way it is in the movie.