CT Escape is not his plan...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Grand_Moff_Jawa, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    How exactly did Vader come to this conclusion? Is it something he sensed in the Force? How did he know Obi-Wan wasn't going to try to escape?
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  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
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    I must have heard that line a hundred times, & now that you mention it, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. I'm sure Obi-Wan had every intention of escaping with the rest (and did in the original shooting script). There's something about his farewell to Luke that suggests he knows he wouldn't, but I might be reading into it.

    I've always taken Vader's line to indicate that he senses that he & Obi-Wan would be facing each other once more, that fate/the Force has brought them together for that very reason. However, it still doesn't explain why Obi-Wan wouldn't still be planning to escape.

    When in doubt...

    The Force did it.
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  3. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    I always took it to mean that Vader was assuming that the ONLY reason Obi-Wan was there was to defeat him.

    Obi-Wan likely wanted to escape, but when he ran into Vader, he realized the Force had other plans.
  4. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    Is it possible Ben knew everything that was going to transpire, from rescuing Luke, to Luke's aunt and uncle being killed, etc? Did Ben know he'd travel to Alderaan, only to be captured by a space station? Ben seemed to recognize the space station before anyone else... So maybe Ben knew everything from a vision from the Force. How else would he have known exactly where to find Luke in the desert? I never really thought about it before. Ben knew he was going to die, yet followed that path anyway.
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  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I'd go with this. It's Vader's obsession with Obi-Wan coming to the fore. I'd say Vader's dialogue in the duel bears this out, too-it's full of grandiose bragging about how much better he's become, how he's eclipsed Obi-Wan, etc, etc.

    Plus as Nub says, Obi-Wan dying originally wasn't the out-of-universe plan. He sort of co-leads the rebel attack on the Death Star with Dodonna.
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  6. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Obi-wan and Vader were going to face one another, that was inevitable. Vader sensed it, and Obi-wan sensed it when they were both on the Death Star.
    When they are dueling and Luke appears, Obi-wan looks at Luke, smiles and them prepares to meet his fate. One thing that he secures here is a distraction allowing Luke to flee, and also ensure that Luke Skywalker is never found out. The secret of Luke being vader's son is still a secret. Obi-wan, for all intents and purposes, knew, or at least suspected that this might be what should happen - regardless of what happened in the script or previous incarnations..
  7. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    That's the way I've always interpreted it, and that Obi-Wan was aware that he wouldn't be leaving the Death Star alive when he told Luke that "The Force will be with you - always."

    Even so, I think it's interesting to point out the strange wording of Vader's line - it implies intent on Obi-Wan's part which I don't think was necessarily there, even if he was somewhat resigned to his fate. At best, I think it emphasises a certain fatalistic philosophy on the part of the Jedi, that they are almost slaves to the will of the Force, & are aware of being such (although the Sith, no doubt, rebel against this notion, attempting to twist the Force to their own purposes).

    Here's the dialogue from the shooting script (Fourth draft revised):

    This dialogue may or may not be in the context of Obi-Wan dying, as opposed to escaping - the changes were made mid-shoot (Fourth draft 'revised' refers to changes made to the script prior to the beginning of shooting, not during the shoot itself).

    Here's the same scene from the original January 1 Fourth Draft, in which Obi-Wan does escape:

    So Vader always stated his belief that Obi-Wan isn't planning to escape - even in the version in which he does. The only real difference in the final film is the certainty with which Vader states his belief. It was originally about how dangerous this forgotten old man could be to the Empire, plus the threat to Obi-Wan himself from Vader, but it works even better in the context of Obi-Wan sacrificing himself so that the heroes could escape & get the DS plans to the Rebels - and with the look he gives Luke, it's even more powerful in the later Saga context, in which it's imperative that Luke survive.

    As with so many other lines & moments in the first film (e.g."That's what I'm afraid of") GL got really, really lucky.
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  8. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    just going off the finished product...

    i would say the very sense of obi's presence tells vader as much.
    the last time the 2 saw each other obi left him to die and obi's mission
    in ep 3 was to kill vader no matter what. now that they are reunited
    vader knows obi will try to complete the mission.
  9. bluesaber70 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2007
    star 2
    I think there were a few factors.

    1. Obi-Wan's age. He wasn't as young anymore.

    2. The force told him.

    3. He had to have known that even though he hadn't seen Kenobi for years he would rear his head again and cause a stir.
  10. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Age isn't really a factor - or perhaps an overall factor.
    Yoda was 881 when he fought Sidious - who was 63
    Dooku was 83 when he died, and still in top shape so as to knock out obi-wan and hold his own against Anakin, until the latter immersed himself in the Dark Side.
    Qui-gon was 60 when he died.
    Obi-wan is only 58. All the other major characters who had specific fighting scenes were all older than him, and technically, Obi-wan let himself be killed.
  11. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Obi Wan's plan:

    Vader will sense me. I shall separate from the group and go alone to shut off the tractor beam and Vader will follow me instead of Luke and gang.

    Vader:

    Gets a general sense that Obi Wan is there when near the Falcon. Refelcts on this through the Force totally knows that Obi Wan is there to distract from the fact that the Deth Star plans are right there. Comes up with the idea to go ahead and confront Obi Wan while letting Luke and gang thing they are escaping while killing off Obi Wan; 2 birds, one stone. Before this confrontation the homing beacon is put in place letting them take the DS plans where they will kill off he Rebellion as well.

    In other words, Vader was on to them very early on.
  12. OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 3
    Actually, if you listen carefully the whole way through, it makes a great deal of sense....

    "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    So Vader always stated his belief that Obi-Wan isn't planning to escape - even in the version in which he does.


    From what I have read, Vader seemed to be hinting to Tarkin that Obi-Wan MIGHT not be planning to escape. But I don't get the impression that Vader was certain of Obi-Wan's intentions.
  14. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Obi-wan knew he had to provide a distraction, but i do not think he intended to die until hew saw Luke in the docking bay.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I love how Vader stomps on the cloak. He's like, "I have a feeling this guy cut a hole in the floor or something. That's how we used to roll."
  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Age might be a factor for Qui-Gon since he couldn't keep up with Darth Maul thus why he got killed. Yoda, on the other hand, is an alien whose abilities are more advanced than any mere human while both Dooku and Sidious are using the Dark Side which, according to Sidious, is a "pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural". Obi-wan could've beaten Vader again regardless of how old he is because he put Vader in that oxygen suit and plus, Vader could barely move in the suit with his robotic limbs but Obi-wan choose to let Vader kill him so he could continue guiding Luke from the afterlife.
  17. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    nice.

    --------------------------------

    "Age might be a factor for Qui-Gon since he couldn't keep up with Darth Maul thus why he got killed."

    no, i don't think so. (i know, wrong board) qui-gon was awesome. they had no idea how savage a sith could be
    and were unprepared.
  18. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    Aug 19, 2003
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  19. OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 3
    Actually, I was watching IV the other day for the 69th time (whatever) and this struck me, I've never noticed it before...

    Obi-wan says this upon leaving the 'room' where the gang is all hanging out after escaping the Falcon, on his way to disable the tractor beam, when Luke wants to go with him:

    "Our destinies lie upon different paths, but remember, the force will always be with you."

    It sure sounds like Obi-Wan knows he won't be coming back to me.
  20. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    [face_laugh]
  21. Anakin_Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2005
    star 1
    I completely agree.

    I believe Obi-Wans only plan was to hold off / distract Vader as long as he possibly can to ensure Luke his escape. I think he knew he wouldn't survive Vaders grasp this time. In which Obi-Wan is completely fine with this, because he knows he will live on.
  22. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    I've always had an issue with Obi Wan giving his life so the others could escape, after all Darth Vader had placed a homing device on the Falcon so they were always going to get away.....Obi Wan essentially gave up his life for nothing.

    Ben knew his physical form wouldn't be leaving the DS but his Force Spirit would live on......."Strike me down now and I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine"
  23. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    Jan 6, 2004
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    Vader's ego I reckon. It always was fairly large.
  24. Minez01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    star 1
    Yep I think he knew as soon as he was on board the station as well. His dialogue indicates that he knows he's probably not going to get off the Death Star. And I also think it's good to point out that Vader's ego is worth a mention as well - even if Obi Wan planned to escape the station, Vader obviously though that his primary reason for being there was to finish off their long standing "grudge" against each other.

    Hehe I've been through this in another thread - it's very frustrating. It might have worked if (a) Luke wasn't standing there doing nothing (b) Obi Wan didn't so obviously stare at him before he died (c) Luke didn't yell out and rather escaped as Obi Wan had planned. I think it was a poorly executed scene.
  25. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I recently watched some behind the scenes footage, where Obi-Wan mentions his intentions to kill Vader if his blade makes its target. I believe this was a conscious decision to keep the theme clear (an offensive statement clashes with his defensive stance throughout the fight).

    But all-in-all, I think Obi-Wan was willing to fight to the death, but his decision was finalized once he saw Luke. His role in his life was completed, and he could die helping them escape.