Escapists vs. Realists (NJO)

Furthermore, the definitions of realism and fantasy does not forbid the application of "Realism" to "Fantasy."

On the contrary, any decent fiction - whether its Fantasy or otherwise - will impart a sense of Realism to many of its readers.

 

Yes, if you are equivocating terminology. But in the literary circle they tend to use shakespearean Comedy vs. Tragedy as the correct terminology or Idealism vs Grit.

Literary community saves the term realism for things dealing with true to life events happening in the real world(earth).

 

Jedi Ben,
So we're again at this discussion, just re-canned under a different name :

More realistic fantasy (escapism)

vs.

Less realistic fantasy (escapism)

We've tried to have it on several occasions. I think first was in Jedi Ben's own thread. Then, it was hijacked by the usual people when I brought it up in the NJO Critics Club. I think that was the last time we tried discussing it.

Interesting discussion about the nature of Star Wars if people are able to step away from the rather irrelevent semantic arguments.

 

"More realistic fantasy (escapism)

vs.

Less realistic fantasy (escapism)"

Now that simplifies it even further. We all are reading escapism, it's that simple. But what level do we like our escapism to consist of?

 

Now that simplifies it even further. We all are reading escapism, it's that simple. But what level do we like our escapism to consist of?

I'm particularly fond of 99% decaffeinated escapism with whipped cream and a twist of lemon. But that's just me perhaps...

 

Wow. Did my post on the Anakin died thread inspire this thread? I noticed all the ramifications that post had on that same thread. I must say, I didn't really expect to arose a debate...But then again, maybe I'm just feeling self-important?

 

When one mentions realism in SW, would one be referring to the breakdown of the idealistic characters showcased in the GFFA? Characters are no longer just good or evil. we see their motivations and experience their innermost thoughts.

And then the author just destroys your favorite character, ruining your life forever and dooming you to read the same blasted novels over and over and I just can't take it anymore . . . . !!!!!!!
Nothing but gloom and dooom all the time. Woe is me!!!

Just kidding. I like the NJO alot!

 

The problem isn't so much whether the Yzzumng Vong invasion is real or not but whether there is menace to our heroes. After all it would not have taken as long as it did to deal with the threat to the galaxy from the Feylya government as it did....however dramatically speaking it worked well.

JRR Tolkien once said if he intended to write realistic Fiction then Sarumen would have found the information to craft his false ring, the hobbits would be slaves before extinction, and Sauron would rule the world

Realism one has to question whether it takes a background to heroic virtue or not. Anakins death upsets many because the question is really "Is all the storyline with anakin exhausted?" Obviously the question is not because of the tahari romance, his transformation into a Jedi master, and many more things.

A good rule of storytelling is never kill a character who has importance left beyond happily ever after.

After all Obi Wan didn't die, he merely became a ghost

 

What we have is a discussion about wether you like NJO because:

"The heros always win, yoda is always right(j/k), the heroes do not die" vs. "I like the NJO because I can worry about who dies, the EU is turned upside down by the YV, etc."

Caine could have labeled the different view points A or B. For you guys to run with this is kind of silly. I'm no PhD in english language or anything, heck I spell baed a lot, and I don't have a encyclopedic knowledge of words. But I do know when to let "non relevant" stuff go(wait a minute, I don't know how to let the irrelevant stuff go, D*MN, I'm a hypocrite).

Back on subject *teardrop* Me I'm an Escapist Realist. I read EU like any book to escape from the harsh pains of the real world, bullys, bosses, professors, broke car, etc. Those hours I get from NJO help me a lot.

Now I'm a Realist in that I love how my beautiful Yuuzhan Vong came in and wrecked shop on the Republic. Chewie died, Anakin too!! Bravo I didn't see it coming. Coruscant falls, massive carnage, huge fleet battles. Finally the Star Wars heroes have real villians to fight.

The Yuuzhan Vong War is more than a movie of the week. Its gonna take time and effort to defeat these Invaders, if they even can! Ha! Seeing the heroes struggle so hard to do so and still lose has really livened things up for me.

 

Whether one is an escapist or a realist doesn't matter because Star Wars is a space opera.

By Brian Aldriss's very definition of a space opera (1974) : "...Blood must run down the palace steps..."

Whether one likes it or not, there will always be a fair amount of death in SW.

 

I hear what your saying, Caine. And I think you were quite eloquent in stating it. And most important, I understand the distinctions and points you are making - regardless of anyone's "preferences and different word choice" for those same exact terms.

There are important aspects to storytelling, and I like the way you presented both a contrast and a balance to the storytelling issues we're reading within the NJO.

Personally, I think the issues you pointed out are always going to be tough to reconcile with the SWEU. Much the same way that it's tough to identify a specific, narrow genre that SW fits into. It's obvious to me that SW is a hybrid of more than one genre, more than one subgenre, that is broad in its style and scope.

Given the definitions that you presented for us to discuss, I think I probably hold a view very similar to yours in my approach to this stuff. Nice topic!!!

 

Didn't we say all we both had to say on this the last time Genghis? Yep, I thought so. No real need to repeat it.



Jedi Ben

 

From posts on other discussion topics, I've noticed Gandolf is OUTSTANDING on these kinds of issues. I hope he/she will share his/her thoughts.

 

Charl, not only a menace to the heroes but a mortal threat to the heroes we cherish.

And you're right. In my view, Tolkien's Middle Earth lacks any sense of "Realism" or "grittiness." For the purposes of this topic, look at Boromir's character. Boromir's character failed to really connect with a reader of FotR. Hence, he was expendable.

But I believe you underestimate the value of conferring a sense of "Realism" to readers of Fantasy.

A good rule of storytelling is not prohibiting the death of a "main" character with infinite potential. A good rule of storytelling is whether that character's actions leading to death makes sense within demarcations of his or her characterization.

Ana V -

Personally, I think the issues you pointed out are always going to be tough to reconcile with the SWEU. Much the same way that it's tough to identify a specific, narrow genre that SW fits into. It's obvious to me that SW is a hybrid of more than one genre, more than one subgenre, that is broad in its style and scope.

Well-said and I agree but I don't believe it's wrong for a certain reader to classify the entire SW saga, the EU or even different genres of EU as they see fit in a specific category.

For some readers, SW is about pure escapism. And the NJO violates that. For others, the NJO adds to the Expanded Universe unlike literature in the past.

But I really feel the NJO does an excellent job in balancing two very different ideas of Fantasy. Without taking away from the feeling of SW.

 

I wouldn't mind hearing Gandolf's views on this either, Ana V. Maybe if we pad his ego enough, he'll grace us with his presence

I wouldn't mind hearing of the similar discussion between Jedi Ben and G12 either.

I apologize if this topic is redundant.

 

It's not the issue of how much realism is in a fantasy genre, but the issue of defining people realists or escapists, when infact we are talking about escapist literature. So we are all escapists, there is no one who is a realist when reading this kind of literature. So why there may be realistic portrayals it is gritty in nature but still remains escapism. So the real question is "how do you like your escapist literature"?

Genghis defined it the best:

More realistic fantasy (escapism) [tragedy]

vs.

Less realistic fantasy (escapism) [comedy]

I'm an escapist(like everyone else that reads the EU) that likes more "reality" in my story, but can accept it when it's less realistic in my willing suspension of disbelief.

 

I agree with and applaud Valiento's insight. He expressed that perhaps far more clearly than I could have.

In regards to the inquiry he issued, I would have to answer by saying that it depends on my mood at the time. Everyone feels like something particular during a given moment, unless I am mistaken.

For instance: On Friday, Bill feels like he wants pizza. On Sunday, he decides on Chinese food.

Some people might feel like having pizza more often than Chinese, others might feel otherwise.


Though I'm sure all of you probably are aware of the blunt, obvious statement I'm about to articulate, I'm going to say it anyway: Everyone's tastes are different and sometimes those tastes vary depending on the current circumstances of any given time.


If I failed to convey my point clearly, forgive me. I'm also watching tv and getting somewhat distracted...

 

i'm gonna have to jump back in here on the minority side...

as far as i am concerned, njo IS realistic...

yeah sure, it's all made-up fiction about something that doesn't exist (blasphemy :0) so, in a way, it is escapist... but the fact is, it's written to be realistic... it's written in a way so as to be believable... unlike some star wars, i don't think the njo is fantasy...

and i'd just like to know why people are laughing when njo is tagged 'realistic'...

what makes you think otherwise?

 

Tanjokabri: "yeah sure, it's all made-up fiction about something that doesn't exist (blasphemy :0) so, in a way, it is escapist... but the fact is, it's written to be realistic... it's written in a way so as to be believable... unlike some star wars, i don't think the njo is fantasy...

and i'd just like to know why people are laughing when njo is tagged 'realistic'...

what makes you think otherwise?"

Star by Star Spoiler:




I agree with that to an extent. The NJO definitely possesses a realistic "feel" to it. Anakin Solo died. We was the most endearing character I've ever had the pleasure of reading about, I believe. I felt sorry for him and I adored him throughout the NJO. Then, like reality, **** happens.

Del Rey, I assume, was trying to snap their readers out of the dream previous Star Wars novels put us in. They introduced realism, in a sense, of course. BAM! Anakin's gone. He was being developed, he was being loved, and now he's gone (assuming he's really dead and doesn't return as a spectre).

I applaud Del Rey for the ability to fabricate such ripples in the reader collective. They lured us in, and then they struck with something we didn't anticipate. You have to admire how they executed Anakin's story (up to this point, of course).


However, some fans (a significant number of them, I presume) were not thrilled. As I've said before, some people don't want realism in their fantasies. We can't just tell those people to go read other books. They're Star Wars fans like us.
We should understand and respect their feelings, not insult them because they percieve things differently than others do.


Again, sorry if I'm being obscure. I need to go and didn't have much time to work on this post.

 

The NJO food metaphor strikes once again. I see we're not holding back in dusting off all of the old issues.

 

I hear that Matthew Woodring Stover writes more realistic fantasy novels within a sub-genre of escapist litrature where grusome realities shine through. You get to escape into the mind of serial killers in literature of that type. Which in one sense other genres in the escapist literary movment "Mystery", "Horror" or "thrillers" are so populer. They have realism, but they still fall under escapist literature, genghis said it best as I had pointed above.

If you want to get into realist literature, then you will have to go and pick of a biography, or true story, perhaps you would enjoy a book on the life and times of George Lucas, .

 

in the contest of escapist vs realist, I think it is too close to call... that's right, you heard it here first, too close to call...


ooops, sorry, thought this was another vs thread.

 

Like Jedi Ben pointed out, the fallacy here is equating increasing death with increasing realism. Yes, it is realistic that in a war like this some major characters will die, but there has seemingly been little attempt at realism in nearly all other aspects of the NJO storyline. It's harder for me to suspend disbelief when I am reading an NJO book than when I am reading books from some other series in which deaths of major characters are absent.

 

Once again -

I disagree. I believe I should find "Realist Literature" in Fiction - and particularly in Fantasy. I actually value Fantasy from which I come away with a sense of Realism.

The Expanded Universe particularly bears a greater responsibility to confer a sense of Realism to its readers because of the epic scale of Time it characterizes. If "main" characters emerge from each conflict for the next one that comes their way, has anything really changed over the course of Time?

Why am I able to read the NJO without having read ANY prior EU? Did anything really change for the galaxy as far as the "main" characters go since RotJ?


Also -

I equate Realism with Change and Progressing Time. And the death of "main" characters prompts Change unlike anything else possibly can. With the NJO, I feel the EU has finally moved forward from RotJ.

This I find realistic.

 

escapist literature is generally defined as something that is written/read merely for the sake of pleasure, the audiance hopes to glean nothing from and, indeed, they make no attempt to glean anything from it. escapism is written/read on a completely superficial level. this literature is generally marked by static, stock characters and plots/themes that cause no self-questioning or introspection. escapism is merely read, but not truly dwelled upon, there is no deeper meaning to it. in this way it can be seen that the NJO does fall shy of the mark, as it is punctuated with character growth adn developement, a smidgen of philosophy (what is the duty of the jedi and how should they carry it out?) and the plot, while basically un-original, does not leave the impression of being stock or entirely predictable (hence the worry over mcd and such). however, as pointed out previously it could not possibly fall into what is generally defined as realism, for, by its very genre, this would be inherintly impossible. i would claim that, in comperrison to the rest of the eu, and sw universe in general, this is incredable deep stuff, but when looking at the entire field of literature, it would be impossible to toss it into the 'realism' bin.