~ESSAY CONTEST WINNER: "TWO AUDIENCES, TWO SPIRITS"~

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DBrennan3333, Dec 28, 2004.

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  1. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    DBrennan clearly wants to get banned.
  2. aPPmaSTer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 3
    Hey where did everybody go?

    Is the party over?

    Anyways I'm about to put my 2 cents in whether anybody's gonna read it or not.
    First of all, you people all gotta calm down. This is a freakin movie ur all fighting about! A figment of someone's imagination that came to life for the pleasure of the public and ur all sitting here brawling about it. Take it easy, take deep breaths:
    ...1
    ....2
    ....3
    ....4
    ahhhh, there. That feels better. That number 4 really hit the spot. Ahem! Anyways.
    Guys, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If a person says something that u don't agree with, then say that you respectfully disagree with them like all the decent people do. Things like, "this essay is nonsense" (which was one of the first replies) and other crap like that really don't help cunduct a reasonable discussion. The author of this essay worked hard to write what he did, but when everyone keeps attacking him with comments like those, it's easy as freakin hell for anyone to lose their cool. Unfortunately, instead of noticing this in the beginning and stopping it with a few kind words, u guys pushed the issue and got a response that u didn't like, and all of sudden we're left with what we have now.
    Instead of an intelligent discussion we have chaos. What a difference a few misplaced words can make huh? Now it's almost impossible to anything with this thread.
    DBrennan, Chaotic Serenity, Darth...uh...sorry man I forgot ur name, but u know who u are...u guys gotta realise what ur doing. I know u feel that ur intelligence and ur pride has been insulted by one another time and time again, but u gotta let that go eventually if u want anything to work, whether it's in this thread or any other one.

    Anyways that's my 2 cents about what's been going on in this thread.

    About the essay, if anyone is going to read this or not, I have the following opinion: I think it shows a very strong point of view, which does not seem hard to believe at all, about Lucas doing the whole thing for money and all. I personally would have liked to see more evidence to support that claim, as it would further convince me about what ur saying and be pretty amusing to read at the same time.

    In my opinion: the OT was made to please the public because it triggered feelings inside us that made us feel good when watching or remembering those movies. Watching those movies made us see a whole new world created in front of our eyes, that was so unbelievable, yet so believable at the same time.

    I feel that the PT trilogy doesn't have this same effect. Firstly because everything you see isn't real anymore, it's all computer generated. From Yoda, to the clones, to the wookies (e3 spoiler)...everything is CG and it's very easy to just pop out of the fantasy in the middle of the movie and realise that it IS a movie. The OT didn't have this problem because most of the things were real.
    Besides this little detail, another thing that I feel made the PT less memorable, is the character identification, interaction and development. Look at TPM for a second. It's hard for a lot of people to feel anything for the characters there, because well, there's too much action going on and too little talking going on to make the characters seem real. An epic is not made with special effects. It's made with a real human story. Drama is the key.

    Now, you're probably wondering: "How does this tie in with the essay?" I'll tell u.

    Is it my opinion that GL did this for the money? Yes and no. Yes because he made the movies very action-like and all flashy with his new gismos. He introduced "cool and childishly appealing" new characters like Darth Maul and Jango Fett, who have each been featured at the end of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 for ur info. I think he did this to attract a bigger audience than only the loyal Star Wars fans who piled up in front of the cinemas 30 days before TPM's release. Attracting a bigger audience also means more money. But was this his ultimate goal?
    Apart from the movies, he also released all kinds of Star Wars merchandise, toys, etc. T
  3. robertyodarugenstein Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    star 4
    DBrrenna I just read a bunch of you past post. And what I read is that you have a real hate for Episode II and the rest of Star Wars. I'm just wondering when you went to see Episode II you where expecting something else than what you got. And now almost 3 years later you just can't let it go. If you don't like so be it. You don't have to keep attacking the people that like Episode II.

    I have one more thing to say. Screw to box office take. That means nothing to me. More people saw Gone with the Wind than Star Wars. You can play with inflation all you want. The number of people that saw a movie you can't.
  4. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    In the process of editing one of DBrennan's posts earlier, a glitch somehow occured in the boards and the initial post, essay included, was edited over instead. I apologize for the mishap and wanted to make it clear that no sort of censorship was occurring.


    That being said, it appears this thread has gotten far out of hand. It is for that reason that I am locking it for 24 hours so that clearer heads can prevail.
  5. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    It has been seen with TESB and ROTJ that when the audiance is given more time, they look more favorably upon the film (the same is true of the Indiana Jones sequels.) In my personal experience, as I give more time, I tend to like The Phantom Menace more. As time passes and expectations which didn't come true slowly die, I find myself liking these films more. So I think that fans need to wait a while longer for ROTS and a few years after. Once the entire story is in place and the arc is visible before us, we may be able to judge it far better.

    That is how I've always seen it anyway.
    I'm not about to bash the story of the prequels because it is only two thirds finished.

    -Seldon
  6. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Now that this thread is again open, I'd like to offer my own assesment of the essay. While there's been enough discussion on the essay's main points, I'd like to bring up this small portion in the middle. There's a fundamental misunderstanding of the meaning, purpose and origins of ancient mythology inherent here, and I'd like to point it out, if only to help the author better understand the sources being dealt with.


    Of course, mythical tales like The Odyssey weren?t designed to withstand the trendy scrutinies of Fanboy, nor did they have any pretense of offering their readers an identity. They were designed to entertain the common man, not some niche demographic. Moreover?.they were just stories.

    In the past, stories from Homer and Virgil weren't just stories: they were, in most cases, articles of belief. While the poetry of each respective author may have been designed primarily as entertainment, the poet's content was a matter of religion. People believed in the stories of the Trojan War, the adventures of Odysseus and the various assorted tales of the Greco-Roman Gods and Goddesses just as much as many today believe in the Bible or the Kuran, amongst other holy texts. Hell, there's a sizeable population today who still believe in the Greek and Roman pantheon of deities, and hold their chronicles in the same religious value. Should we then dismiss them as "just stories"?

    Also, you must remember that epic tales such as the Odyssey were products of an oral storytelling system, and that over the centuries the content of the piece would change depending upon the bard who sang it, the occasion surrounding any given performance, and so forth. What survives today is the end result of hundreds, if not thousands of years of elaborations.
    In that sense, these stories did have to withstand trends and scrutinizing audiences. And as for not offering their "readers" (again, oral storytelling ) an "identity"-- think of Telemachus, the untested son of Odysseus, out to find his father. If one could not adequately identify with the "man of twists and turns", they could probably identify with his son, couldn't they?

    That's all I have to say. Next time you're going to consider works of antiquity, it would be better to attempt an understanding of how they truly functioned in their time, in order to better understand how works of our own time function for us.
  7. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Seldon: Interesting. That's what just happened for me with the Matrix trilogy. I now love it! :)
    So of course, I totally agree. In time, everyone will be able to see the Star Wars saga in the right light.
  8. aPPmaSTer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 3
    I like what Darth Seldon is saying. In fact I think you or someone else mentioned this notion before and I said how I agreed with it. Yes I think it's only fair to watch the entire PT and analyse the arc and then decide whether it was a success or a failure.

    However I think it's only fair to say also that I'm not happy at this point with where the prequels stand and their quality, and I think that was DBrennan's main idea.

    I think we should make another essay contest after ROTS is out and has been out for a while, and see people's opinions then. It would be far more fair, and more interesting to see.
  9. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    I emphatically disagree with the idea that a good third movie would somehow magically make the crappy first two movies better. As if some mystical spirit will go and alter your DVD's after May 19th, making them better.

    I mean, ROTS can be a better movie than 'Lawrence of Arabia,' and that won't change the fact that TPM and AOTC are bad.

    And if you're thinking that TPM and AOTC will be better because the "full arc will be revealed" (doesn't that sound like a line for the trailer?), well, WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN WHAT THE 'FULL ARC' WAS. I'll end the suspense for you right now: Palpatine becomes the Emperor of the galaxy and Anakin Skywalker turns into Darth Vader. Stop the presses!

    I hope and honestly expect that ROTS will be, at the worst, pretty good. I read the scene-by-scene story and it is AWESOME, I just loved it. So even if it's directed horribly, it will still be pretty cool.

    But that won't make TPM and AOTC any better. We knew what they were leading up to, we knew who the characters were, we knew the "PG" limits of the movies....and they were still awful.
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    ...in your opinion. Do not forget that there are those(us) who do think that TPM and AOTC are fantastic movies. It is unfortunate(for you) that you don't agree.
  11. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Brennan-- I think that much of the dissatisfaction that many (yourself being a prime example) have had with TPM and AOTC is precisely that we know what they're leading up to. The reason that the OT was so successful, in many respects, was due to the fact that it was completely new, and nobody knew where any of it was headed. Because we've always known that the PT would have to cover the early days of Anakin, the Clone Wars, the destruction of the Jedi, the rise of Palpatine and the birth of Vader (amongst other things), we've all been spoiled for the films before they were even made. This explanation has been voiced a thousand times, of course (and will no doubt be voiced a thousand more to be responded to equal amounts of skepticism), but the expectations we've carried for the PT is exactly what makes it so hard to please the majority of hardcore fans. In my experience, those who enjoyed TPM and AOTC the most are those who are completely new to the series, or have only a passing knowledge. Even the hardcore fans who love the films have to remind themselves that they won't be seeing the film they imagined for more than twenty years. In a way, it's very much the same as when fans of a novel become dissapointed by its cinematic adaptation.

    Also, in terms of the whole "arc" of the PT, remember that we've only known aboout it in broad strokes. Of course we know (and remember, to a large degree it's only us) that Palpatine will become the Emperor and Anakin will become Vader, and we've known this pretty much since ANH, but there is an endless amount of minutiae that can't be distilled so easily. If it could, then any number of films and stories could be summed up in a sentence or two as easily as you summed up the main ideas of ROTS. It's not really necessary to watch "Casablanca"; all we need to know is that a guy named Rick meets an ex-girlfriend during WWII and helps her and her husband escape from Nazi occupied Morroco. Seeing "Apocalypse Now" is redundant; after all, it's just a story about a guy named Willard who takes a boat ride through Vietnam and kills a guy named Kurtz who went crazy and started reading T.S. Eliot all the time.

    "Gone With the Wind"? A spoiled southern belle gets her life screwed up in the Civil War, marries all the wrong guys and then loses the one guy who ever really liked her. "The Maltese Falcon"? A detective and a bunch of shady characters all vie to get a valuable statue that turns out to be fake, anyway. "Citizen Kane"? Friends and associates remember a dead rich guy who missed his sled. "Lord of the Rings"? A couple of short guys get rid of a ring.

    "Hamlet"? A depressed Danish prince kills everyone around him, at the behest of his father's ghost. "Romeo and Juliet"? Two kids from feuding families fall in love and commit suicide.

    The whole point of storytelling, in one sense, is all the minutiae. We tell stories not to know "what happened", "who it happened to", or even really "how it happened": we tell stories just to tell them. When we hear stories being told well, we want them to last as long as possible. There's a constant resistance to closure, a denial to endings whenever we experience them. That's why we want more, and as storytellers we [i[ tell [/i] more, just for the pleasure of telling. Any number of the emotionally important things, in the end, are superfluous.

  12. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    IMNSHO, there is a core audience to SW films which is unprecedented. I wonder what happens if and when RotS outgrosses AotC? What would PT haters say? Whether or not the story does it for you is a matter of opinion. You need not falsely classify two generations of fans to fortify the ridiculous notion in your head that there is something wrong with a bunch of people because you can not definitively claim that there is something wrong with the PT. It doesnt stray from your thesis to argue that because ITS IN YOUR THESIS! That the PT is not good is YOUR opinion. It is not a fact.
  13. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, you pointed out how many movies people like even though those people know the story beforehand, and this disproves your own claim that we don't like TPM and AOTC just because we already knew the story.

    Look, AOTC and, to a lesser extent, TPM, were just BAD. It was painful watching Hayden Christianson and Ewan McGregor try to act out their bantering in the beginning. It was embarassing to watch Natalie Portman respond to Hayden Christenson's come-ons....it was just bad. (I just realized that I didn't even use the character's names, that shows how much the movie failed to hold my attention).

    The effects were bad, the dialogue was bad, everything about the movie just dripped of self-important artifice. As for TPM....it was just sort of flat and random. It seemed to be all about nothing.

    That's my opinon, anyway.
  14. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    I loved them and I saw all three originals in the theater, albeit ANH in the 1979 rerelease, so your " fanboy " classification is deutz. Dont pretend like its a minor part of your essay because it isnt. Its a ridiculous assumption and serves only to enflame. Your declining numbers are accurate but you never, and cleverly so I might add, account for any change in the industry which makes it nearly impossible to have 500 million + movie, unless its an historical, romantic epic - like " Gone With the Wind " or " Titanic ". These movies cost a country to make, were always a HUGE risk that bomb 9 out of 10 times, and for that reason are rarely ever made. When they do hit all cyclinders they are gold. Im off topic now, but the point is I loved the PT and really dont see where your coming from with them and arguing that your the best writer and every is just mad really just fortifies what everyone posting on your thread except for you is thinking: that your a good writer with no clue.
  15. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    PostSeverian:

    Your claim that Star Wars has some sort of bizarre handicap at the box office is bogus. If that were so, then they would not make them, and they certainly wouldn't put multi-million dollar marketing campaigns.

    Star Wars is about as BIG a movie series as their ever can be. Swordfights, romance, exploding planets, exotic creatures, strange religions....no, nothing is bigger than Star Wars.

    Besides, if there is some bizarre handicap on how much modern movies can make....how did Spider-Man make $400 million when it was released at the exact same time as AOTC?

    Look, I've never met anybody besides people on this board who liked AOTC. It opended huge, everybody knew about it, everybody wanted to like it....but it was just no good.
  16. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    I never said that SW has a handicap, I said that you dont address any change in the film industry when arguing SW decline in popularity. Its your defintion of " fanboy " that bothers me, not your use of box office totals to illustrate a decline SW popularity, of which you are the ten thousandth person to do. You alienate an entire generation of fans of which, if your age is correct in your profile, you are very close to being a part of. Its not that your essay isnt well written, its just enflaming in some aspects.
  17. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I think we should make another essay contest after ROTS is out and has been out for a while, and see people's opinions then. It would be far more fair, and more interesting to see.

    Yes, that would be very interesting. Hopefully it would also have more active participation and more essays submitted.

    DBrennan, it seems to me that you are arguing and the proof of your side of the debate, is your own personal opinion. The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are different things to different people, it depends on personal perspective. We cannot simply state that they were bad or good films...it is all subjective. That is the thing your essay takes the stance that the two prequels are terrible, but goes into no detail on how they are bad. Your thoughts on the acting, casting, writing and directing is all opinion, and proves nothing except for the fact that you dislike it.

    -Seldon



  18. aPPmaSTer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 3
    I think all u guys are forgetting what an essay actually is. It's a person sharing his opinion and leaving you to decide whether you share this opinion or not. What's going on here is you guys all going
    "it's like this!"
    "no it's like that!"
    "oh so it's not? well ur essay sucks then!"
    How is that kind of talk going to bring out anything positive? Think about it...

    As for the PT debate, there are people that like the PT and there are those who don't. Again it's just a matter of personal opinion. But what DBrennan said is a fact I can't ignore...I don't know anybody outside this forum that liked AOTC. I've seen die-hard SW fans switch to either the Matrix, LOTR, or Harry Potter after seeing AOTC.
    An example of this is when I went to see it. I went with 3 of my firends, a SW fan like me, and two regular people. At the beginning when title came up and stuff, me and my SW fan friend were gonna die of excitement. We were literally going crazy after seeing the words "Epidode II: Attack of the Clones". At the end of the movie we didn't move until after the credits were long gone. Our non-SW friends were looking at us trying to see our reactions. Our heads slowly moved until we made eye contact and the only words we could utter were, "What the hell was that?"

    LOL, anyways that was my "first time" with AOTC. Now I'm not saying that everyone should hate it, but to be tolerant of each other it's only fair to investigate why the others think that way. But it's also fair and very important for people who dislike the movies to investigate why people like them.
    That's my 2 cents!
  19. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    I went to the premeire of AotC with about 15 hardcore SW fans, all of whom were my age ( 26 at the time ), all of whom were present for the hysteria of the OT and we all loved it. From the sounds of the applause everyone else in the theater loved it, and I have to tell you, applause doesnt come cheap in my neck of the woods, even in a premeire.
  20. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    Appmaster, nobody is saying DBrennan3333 doesn't have a right to his opinion, though apparently he doesn't reciprocate this sentiment for other people. The problem we are arguing is that this essay, while seemingly well written on the surface, is poorly put together. It is saturated with bias at every corner (essays are about *objectivity*), fails to produce undeniable proof or provide few examples at all about why the author feels the PT movies are lesser quality, has been shown to contain falsified and distorted reports on box office revenue numbers, contains mostly rehashed concepts rather than original ideas, and has plenty of thinly veiled insults targeted at people who disagree with him. When people attempted to then critique the flaws of this essay, some of us even breaking down the essay into valid counter arguments, rather than providing intelligent discussion, he personally attacked us. He put words in our mouths, provided warped information to reflect badly on the people responding, and then played the part of his own self-immolating martyr to garner sympathy.

    I don't care if he has his own opinion. That's fine. He had a great thesis. But that doesn't mean he's right. And anyone who lacks respect for the opinions of others doesn't deserve any for his own.
  21. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I don't know anybody outside this forum that liked AOTC. I've seen die-hard SW fans switch to either the Matrix, LOTR, or Harry Potter after seeing AOTC.

    I know plenty of people (fans and non-fans, board members and non-members) who love this film. That is a giagantic generlization and an untrue one. There are people in this universe that actually like Attack of the Clones.

    It is not a contest between SW, LOTR, Matrix and HP. Someone can love them all or love none of them. It is not a political group where it is one or the other. There is no switching "sides." They are all works of fiction and are all very loved by different groups. It is not a contest.

    This thread has been created to discuss the essay. So we are all sharing our two cents. That is what this forum is for.

    Thanks
    -Seldon
  22. aPPmaSTer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 3
    I know plenty of people who love this film. That is a giagantic generlization and an untrue one. There are people in this universe that actually like Attack of the Clones.

    I didn't mean just because I don't know anybody who likes AOTC that there are no people that like it, I'm just stating a mere fact that I found I have in common with DBrennan, and maybe with other people. Nothing more.

    As for what Serenity said, well, I CAN'T ARGUE WITH U AND U KNOW THAT! AHHHHHHHH! It's not fair :( C'mon Serenity, go easy on me. You always say stuff I couldn't argue with even if I tried. C'mon, not everybody's a WRITER!
    Anyways here goes...I think everyone's arguments of the problems of the essay can easily be regarded as mere criticism if all you're getting is people telling u about the problems. Some people argue intelligently, while others don't, and it's easy to get annoyed by those individuals. Everyone should just respect others' opinions and be polite and that would be the easiest solution to this whole debate.

    Anyways I'm typing in my sleep...later!
  23. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Some people argue intelligently, while others don't, and it's easy to get annoyed by those individuals.

    Regardless, if you don't like what a poster is saying about you or find that it is a flame then report it to a moderator rather than lash out against it. There is no need to lose your temper over what is said in this thread or any thread. If something is offensive or to be considered a flame then talk to a moderator rather than join in on it. There is no excuse for joining in on it. Those who aren't being civil could be dealt with.

    One might me annoyed by those who are flaming you, however you should not post that annoyance, just talk to site leadership. Everyone should remain civil, and there is absolutely no excuse to enter a flame war.

    Now back to the essay, I'm glad you admitted that about Attack of the Clones. The fact is that many people do like the film and many more will begin to appreciate it upon future viewings. It has been stated that TESB did not become popular until ROTJ came out. AOTC, like The Empire Strikes Back, leaves many untied threads. One can appreciate the film more once these threads are ended in the next film.

    -Seldon
  24. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    In one of Brennans' rebuttals he cites bad f/x. Think about that for a second. Bad f/x? Where? I thought that the F/X in the PT, particularly AotC, were absolutely mind blowing. I'll admit that Ive seen better since ( Im sorry but as formulaic as I, Robot was, Ive still never witnessed better f/x ) but not THAT much better.


    On a side note and somebody more resource savvy than me might want to check this out, but I have heard that the PT to date has a worldwide box office of 1.5 BILLION dollars. Thats from an unverified source, I admit, but still if its true - 1.5 BILLION! Thats only two movies people.
  25. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Attack of the Clones was shot on digital film. It does not get much more innovative than that. The Prequel Trilogy, like the classics before them, have pioneered the special effects of the times. A lot can be said about the prequels however, bad effects or bad f/x is not one of them.

    -Seldon
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