EU Debates (NO BLASTERS!) Round II: Balanced Views of Balance Point

If POV space is limited, then the point is that Leia already had a POV book in Jedi Eclipse.

Therefore, the POV is actually being spread more equally across the entire NJO line by giving Mara POV space in Balance Point.

But I think the whole "We must pit character X against character Y" school of thinking is ludicrous to begin with, anyway. Another part of my point is that some people seem to feel that because Mara has POV space in Balance Point, she is being favored by DelRey and her fans are being catered to. By looking at other books in the NJO line, one can see that this claim is patently absurd.

Also, as Jade's Fire said, it is the quality that counts. It cannot be denied that Leia's actions make the most impact on the storyline.

I have yet to see a statement from DelRey or Kathy that Balance Point was supposed to center on Leia.

I have, however, seen statements that Balance Point centers on Jacen.

Yes, Kathy used Jacen, Leia and Mara as POV characters. She also used Jaina (18 pages from Jaina's POV), Tsavong Lah (17 pages from his POV), Luke (10.5 pages from his POV), Han (10 pages from his POV), Randa (4.5 pages from the Hutt's POV), Nom Anor (4 pages from his POV), Anakin (3 pages from his POV), Viqi (1 page from her POV), Durgand Brarun (1 page from the Duro official's POV), and Kenth Hamner (.5 pages from his POV).

They are ALL POV characters, since at one point or another we see the action through their eyes, filtered through their perception.

An author picks the best character through which to tell the action at any given time. That is their creative choice as writers.

 

Aleja...
"She also used...They are ALL POV characters, since at one point or another we see the action through their eyes, filtered through their perception."

Kathy has said in these forums that the status of Jacen, Mara and Leia as POV characters is special, different from characters who are merely "used." In fact, she also stated she cheated and got away with using Han in a similar manner as her _ASSIGNED_ POV characters.

That is, it looks like in each book there is a limited number of "special" characters who are made available to an author to be used for key POVs. This is vastly different from characters' POVs who are not used in such a manner. I think you have not realized that fact yet by mentioning the large numbers of characters who were "merely used" in the book.

It is these assigned POV characters who we're comparing. Mara, Leia and Jacen all had special status in BP as characters. Out of those three Leia got significantly less time. Those are the facts of the matter.

Now, whether people feel that that constitutes favoritism or anything else for that matter is up to them. I could care less about the subjectiveness of it. Sticking to the facts, Leia and Mara were on similar "special" status - that is different from Jaina, Tsavong Lah, Luke, Han (* - see above in the case of Han), Randa, Nom Anor, Anakin, Viqi, Durgand Brarun, and Kenth Hamner If you don't understand that difference, then this part of the discussion is probably over.

 

I would just like to point out, that no where has it been said that Mara and Leia had the same degree of "specialness". ALlw e know is that Del Rey asked Kathy to tell the story mainly through Jacen's, Leia's and Mara's eyes. Show me where is says Leia and Mara were supposed to be equal. I haven't seen it.

I somehow doubt Del Rey said Kathy, you have to tell the story specifically through these people's eyes. You can't use anyone else. We don't care about the other's. Just use these three. What i'm sure they said was, tell this story. Try and use Jacen, Leia, and Mara as focal points. We believe that the story is best told through them.

You can disagree with that. Whether the story would have been better told through someone else's eyes, but this nonsense that because Leia and Mara held the same "special" status is rediculous. NO where have I read that they were meant to be equal, or that their contribution to the story was meant to be the same.

If i'm wrong, please show me.

 

Hey, the POVs are assigned for the purpose of advancing the characters. Hardcovers are assigned specific events because they are supposed to contain the major occurances in the GFFA in case people want to skip the softcovers. Jacen, Leia, and Mara were chosen to have large 'character' events in Balance Point: Jacen returned to the Force, Leia got back with Han and became more action oriented (maybe?), and Mara got pregnant. These are also all major events in the GFFA and deserved to be in a hardcover. I don't think there is any question about that, is there? The problem is that favoritism may have been shown to certain events over other events (ie Mara's pregnancy was given more focus than Leia's reconciliation with Han). As people pointed out, there are limited POVs and limited hardcovers. Leia and Han's reunion was not covered to the fans satisfaction in this one, so chances are they won't get to see it.

 

POV means that the action is told from a character's point of view.

That's it. No ifs, ands or buts. Read Orson Scott Card's book on characterization and viewpoint for further clarification.

I was very surprised to see that Kathy did use so many POV characters.

Like A Smuggler's Spin said, nowhere is it said that Mara, Jacen and Leia were supposed to be on equal footing. As a matter of fact, counting pages by whose POV we are in, Jacen has 112 pages, Mara has 106, and Leia has 37. But trying to make that into an argument regarding the book's quality is absurd.

 

I didn't think we were working with the websters definition of POV. I thought we were talking about who had scenes which were about them. If a scene is told in Jacen's first person, but all he is doing is describing what's happening to Leia, then I would say it was a Leia scene.

 

Aleja...
"POV means that the action is told from a character's point of view."

It seems you are completely missing the boat. No offense, but you just don't seem to understand. Kathy Tyers was allowed to work with three main characters - she mentions POV in relation to them - for Balance Point. These are characters that were assigned to her for her POV use. Any other POV characters she used were incidental and are not relevant to this discussion. Those three characters that she was assigned to use were Jacen, Mara and Leia. That is, these three POV characters have a status in BP different from any other characters. Of those three, Leia got _FAR_ less time. Those are the facts.

Now, since it is reasonable to assume that Jacen gets the most time, since it was his book. However, if there's a limited amount of POV (NJO POV, Kathy's POV) time to spread throughout all of the NJO books, then Leia's character would be better served if she wasn't used in such a limited manner in BP. That is, Kathy (or LFL or whomever) should have waited until a book can utilize Leia's designated POV time more than just the few pages she was in in BP. People should have waited until she could get 100+ pages like Mara did as a designated POV.

"That's it. No ifs, ands or buts. Read Orson Scott Card's book on characterization and viewpoint for further clarification."

Read Kathy Tyers comments here for further clarification.

"I was very surprised to see that Kathy did use so many POV characters."

She used a bunch, but these are not the same as the designated POV characters an author is allowed to use. There's a difference.

"As a matter of fact, counting pages by whose POV we are in, Jacen has 112 pages, Mara has 106, and Leia has 37."

That makes the whole situation much much worse.

"But trying to make that into an argument regarding the book's quality is absurd."

I agree, which is why I've been trying to tell people that for a number of posts now.

 

Genghis,

Are you advocating that Jacen, Mara, and Leia should have all received the same number of pages in BP?

 

Jade's Fire...
"Genghis, Are you advocating that Jacen, Mara, and Leia should have all received the same number of pages in BP?"

!?! Not at all. It was "Jacen's Book" (as per the writer), so IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got the lion's share. Hopefully others see it that way as well.

 

Then in her confrontation with Tsavong Lah, this was another poster's point whom I sadly cannot recall, she effectively kills the entire Vong philosophy. Even when she is about to be sacrificed, she does not give in to Lah. This is supposed to be weakness? Even with zero options Leia will not give in to anyone, which is part of what the Vong do: they don't just kill you but get you to believe their ideas so you desire your own death by sacrifice. Leia rejected that with utmost contempt.

Yes! Leia is brilliant in that scene - didn't she even get the WarMaster to stumble on his philosophy. She said that the GFFA values life - and that death cannot be valued over life because how can one love death without being alive? (paraphrase)

 

Genghis,

Would you want to see the three main POV characters in BP to have only, let's say, a +/- 10 page (you supply the number if you don't like mine) difference between each of them?

 

Jade's Fire...
"Genghis, Would you want to see the three main POV characters in BP to have only, let's say, a +/- 10 page (you supply the number if you don't like mine) difference between each of them?"

Not at all. It was "Jacen's Book" (as per the writer), so IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got the lion's share.

 

Genghis12 said on 2/28 at 10:45am:

>>I think that things should have been balanced out better between the POV's. I believe a few more Leia pages would have gone a long way to handling much of the criticism levelled here and elsewhere about the book. It truly would have been a "balance point" for the characters. <<

I am merely trying to find out what *your* "balance point" is. So I ask again:
Would you want to see the three main POV characters in Balance Point to have only a +/- 10 page count difference between each of them?

You've advocated that you think the book should have been "balanced out better between POV's".
Can you please quantify what you think constitutes a better balance?

If anyone else wants to answer too, feel free.

 

Jades Fire...
"I am merely trying to find out what *your* "balance point" is. So I ask again:
Would you want to see the three main POV characters in Balance Point to have only a +/- 10 page count difference between each of them?"

And I answer again (for the third time here and about the fourth or fifth including prior comments about Jacen's role). Since the writer has said BP was "Jacen's Book," IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got more appearances.

Your other questions have already been answered in this thread to some degree, especially with respect to actual quantification.

Some thoughts to consider...
First, we can all hopefully agree that Jacen is granted immunity from analysis since its his book. Now, moving beyond that, if we go by Gandolf's "appearances" then Leia has 90 and the third POV has 115. Clearly things are not balanced even with just including gross page counts of appearances. It gets much worse if we're actually talking POV.

If we go by Aleja's "POV" then Leia has 37 and the third has 105 - almost three times as much "POV" time than Leia. That's not balance by any reasonable means.

There's any number of different permutations that could have probably solved or at least lessened the problem of her "appearance" deficit. However, her extreme "POV" deficit is rather daunting to overcome. In any case, the book has been written so there's not much that we can do. There were a number of people here and elsewhere who made the claim that Leia (as well as the Han/Leia interaction) got "discriminated" against. The numbers provided by GtG and Aleja certainly seem to validate such claims.

 

>>And I answer again (for the third time here and about the fourth or fifth including prior comments about Jacen's role). Since the writer has said BP was "Jacen's Book," IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got more appearances. <<

Okay. I realize it was Jacen's book. Just trying to rectify the earlier comment you made regarding balance between the major POV characters.

>>Now, assuming Jacen is immune from page imbalance since it's his book, we can only compare the time spent on the two other POV's. There is a clear imbalance.<<

Then let's take Jacen out of the mix. What do *you* (not aleja or GtG) think would have been a "better balance" between Leia and Mara? No more than a 10% difference? 20%? 30%? Should Leia have received at least a 100 pages? *You* tell me.

And anyone else who thinks that there was a grossly negligent imbalance can answer this question too. I am curious as to how people would solve a perceived problem.

 

Jade's Fire...
"Okay. I realize it was Jacen's book. Just trying to rectify the earlier comment you made regarding balance between the major POV characters. "

Okay, if you meant rectify the interaction between the _THREE_ POV characters, I don't think there's been any discrepency:
1. Page 2 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=2
"Jacen (it was "his" book)...
Mara...
...Leia"

2. Page 2 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=2
"And I don't think we're talking much here...shift 12 pages from Mara, add 6 pages to Leia and 6 pages to Han (could be the same 6 pages actually - and if the case, add 3 each again to Leia and Mara) and you have Mara and Leia balanced for their spotlight book, as well as a slight bit more interaction about Han&Leia's reunion. Now, things can't be perfectly balanced, but Mara is in about 28% more pages than Leia"

3. Page 4 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=4
"It was actually primarily a Jacen book with Leia/Mara supplemental POV's. However, the point that no one can deny is that in a Jacen/Leia(/Mara) book, Leia got one of the lowest page counts of anyone, even less than characters' whose books it was not spotlighting."

4. Page 5 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=5
"In the case of BP, a "Jacen book" with Leia and Mara POV's, Leia got the least number. The deficit was a 60% deficit between Jacen and Leia and about 30% more for Mara over Leia. Now, assuming Jacen is immune from page imbalance since it's his book, we can only compare the time spent on the two other POV's."

5. Page 6 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=6
"Those three characters that she was assigned to use were Jacen, Mara and Leia. That is, these three POV characters have a status in BP different from any other characters. Of those three, Leia got _FAR_ less time. Those are the facts. Now, since it is reasonable to assume that Jacen gets the most time, since it was his book."

6. Page 6 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=6
"Not at all. It was "Jacen's Book" (as per the writer), so IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got the lion's share. Hopefully others see it that way as well."

7. Page 6 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=6
"Not at all. It was "Jacen's Book" (as per the writer), so IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got the lion's share.

8. Page 6 - http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2012167&page=6
"And I answer again (for the third time here and about the fourth or fifth including prior comments about Jacen's role). Since the writer has said BP was "Jacen's Book," IMO it's reasonable that Jacen got more appearances. "

I have absolutely no idea why any clarification (i.e. "rectify") about the major POV characters relationship to each other (and Jacen's relationship as the book's focus) was required. I thought it was pretty clear. However, you kept asking about all _THREE_ main POV characters (as opposed to comparing the two supplemental POV's outside of Jacen).

As a side note, you said...
"What do *you* (not aleja or GtG) think would have been a "better balance" between Leia and Mara?"

I don't think Aleja or GtG ever gave thoughts (opinions) about a "better balance" in their numbers I referenced. A number is a number. What they did do is post pure "facts" on page counts - a verifiable quantity. I assume their facts are correct for the sake of this discussion since I'm not inclined to either count character appearances or character POV appearances. If you think the numbers they gave were pure opinion, I would be mildly interested in knowing what the confirmed true page count is for both and why it is better than the ones Aleja and GtG posted. For the record, personally I don't think further refinement is necessary. Even if their numbers differ by several pages, it's still adequate IMO for discussion purposes. However, hopefully we can at least agree that Aleja's and GtG's numbers are "fact" and not op

 

LOL!

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that some people are actually *counting* pages here?? Heheheheh.....*sigh*

Pssst...how many did Han/Leia have? 'Cos whatever it was, it wasn't enough

 

Ahhh, look at this: another thread successfully slayed.




No seriously, why am I such a thread killer???

 

Maybe because you didn't add anything to the conversation, not that it was very exciting anyway.

As for the page numbers, POV, etc etc can we at least agree that the quality level in regards to Leia for a scene she is not in is zero? Page counting is fairly petty when you're talking about a novel. Quality is of course more important. But as I pointed out, quality is irrelevant if the person isn't in any scenes. Note: I'm not saying that Leia didn't have any scenes, I'm merely pointing out that quality is not the only concern, quantity is important also.

My thoughts on a solution are fairly simple: add more pages. If Del Ray wants to have three major characters have important events happen to them PLUS have major events in the galaxy in general (ie hardcover requirement) then they should allow for longer novels. If they refuse to lengthen the books, then they should make some tough decisions to ensure quality stories, like pushing the pregnancy off into the next hardcover (for example).

 

The whole point I was endeavoring to make is that page counts for characters are stupid and pointless. If we are going to require the authors to have a minimum page count for major POV characters, then the folks at Del Rey might as well throw in the towel. It is bad enough that there is probably a total page count on the books to begin with.

The bottom line is that Leia is a major point of view character. Kathy accomplished the job she was told to include: reunite Han and Leia.

In the end, it is *the writer* who decides how best to write the book within the confines of the outline. We (collectively including the editors) should never put page counts on a writer in regards to a particular set of characters. That takes away from the artistic freedom of the writer to produce what he/she believes would be the best novel they could write.

I think we can all agree that we would have liked to see a longer book. Considering the page count that we got and that it is part of the NJO, I think we got a darn good novel.

 

I also agree that page counting is ridiculous, and the only reason why I did it was to show how ludicrous the argument is.

I am tired of claims of "favoritism" which take little to no consideration of the creative process that goes into writing a book. By gathering empirical evidence and throwing it back I was hoping to point out how silly the whole thing was to begin with.

Oh well.

Oh, and I found Kathy's posts. The only POV character she was ASSIGNED was Jacen. She PICKED Leia. She could have easily have chosen Han for the reunion scene POV.

 

Yeah, personally I cant see why Leia fans would have any gripes about how she was portrayed in BP. I'm a Leia fann and I thought Tyers did a great job. I don't know about page numbers, and really, I don't care. But plot-wise, Leia's part seemed a lot more significant to me than Mara's so I don't know why people are getting all tangled up in knots about it.

She lost her hair? Pfft! big deal. It will grow. Plus it literallly 'added character' in this case. I've got no problem with that.

Her legs? Yeah..I hope she keeps those, but that's not really up to Tyer's is it? Otherwise that scene with her standing up to the Vong was excellent!

*sigh*, again, my only problem with it was the Han/Leia reunion. It wasn't completely awful or anything, I just wish we could have gotten *more* of it.

That is all.

 

Aleja...
"Oh, and I found Kathy's posts. The only POV character she was ASSIGNED was Jacen. She PICKED Leia. She could have easily have chosen Han for the reunion scene POV."

That was part of my point. As I've stated, Kathy would probably have been better off choosing an entirely different character to use as the third Viewpoint character - one she can utilize more than she did Leia.

That's especially significant since a lot of gripes by people here seemed to not be the quality of Leia's role, but the quantity of it.

It is also especially significant as Jedi Merkurian & Echobase have pointed out in that it certainly does help to prove that a character didn't get reasonable time. In fact, it is really the only non-subjective way of doing so.

Discussions of "true quality" are meaningless since there's wildly different views of what that quality means. That is, if we want people to just chime in with "Balance Point is kewl" or "Balance Point suckz," then that's okay too I guess. And there's people on completely opposite sides for just about any book we'll ever discuss. But, I don't think that's what Jedi Merkurian had intended. I think he was after something less subjective - but I'm not 100% certain.

There's been critical essays written which label Star Wars literature on par with Shakespeare, while others label it as the worst example of fluff our society has ever created. Balance Point is no different in that regard. Discussions of quality are irrelevent because of its inherent subjectivity - there are no standards (outside of people's personal opinions) which to judge "quality" save Lucasfilm's approval of such work. We know that they have cancelled books (not allowed authors, etc.) based on quality concerns in the past, therefore that precedent is there. For any discussion, a book is a quality book with respect to Star Wars if it has been approved by Lucasfilm - whether it is "Glove of Darth Vader" or "Heir to the Empire" or "Balance Point." Therefore, my main interest in these kinds of discussions is objectivity - what are the facts of the matter.

The fact of the matter is that Leia got vastly less time than equal characters - something which is important to a balanced discussion of the book.