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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

EU Debates (NO BLASTERS!!) What Would YOU Do Different/the Same?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Merkurian , Nov 19, 2001.

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  1. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    well, if they leave out that escaped tarkin, or just make him a clone of the real tarkin. I wouldn't mind too much actually if they chose to ressurect the storyline.
     
  2. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 14, 2000
    I?ll begin with something I originally posted here in a recent debate? (I will apologize in advance for the length)

    For an average galaxy, there are about 250 000 000 000 (two hundred and fifty billion) stars. Lets assume that the GFFA is (astronomically at least) an average galaxy. If only one in 250 000 (two hundred and fifty thousand) stars has a planet somewhere in it?s system that is suitable for habitation, that is still 1 000 000 (one million) planets. Now, lets say that of those planets, less than half are actually habited, and that the Empire only controls half of those. Now we have 250 000 (two hundred and fifty thousand) planets.

    Now, we?ll say that the average planet has a population of about one billion (small planets like Tatooine being balanced by more heavily populated planets like Alderaan and Coruscant). That means that there are over there are over 250 000 000 000 000 (250 trillion) citizens in the Empire. Given that Coruscant alone is home to 1 000 000 000 000 (One trillion) inhabitants, I actually believe that this figure towards the low side.

    Now, we assume that one in ten thousand people in the galaxy is in Imperial service. That means that there are over 25 000 000 000 (twenty five billion) Imperial military personal. Obviously, one in ten thousand is also a rather low figure; a militaristic regime like Palpatines might have recruitment as high as one in one hundred.

    A typical Star Destroyer carries about 40 000 (forty thousand) people. The Executor carried about 200 000 (two hundred thousand), and Death Star would have carried at most 2 000 000 (two million). I?m not sure about exact figures here, if someone can give me the precise numbers I?d be grateful.

    So, lets assume that in addition to the Death Star II, and the Executor, there were one hundred other Star Destroyers in system (where they were hiding, I have no idea, but lets assume they were there for a moment). That would be about 6 200 000 (Six point two million) Imperial personal killed/captured if absolutely none of them was to retreat.

    This would mean that a sizable portion of the fleet was captured/destroyed. A whole 0.0248%. That?s right, less than one tenth of one percent. About two out of every thousand Imperial officers would be dead. While certainly a nasty shock, the military loss would not doom the Empire in of itself. Even after the battle of Endor, the Empire would still have a fleet far greater than the rebels. They would still have about the same number of Stormtroopers around the galaxy keeping order. Any celebrations concerning the Emperor?s death would be dealt with in the same way that previous protests were dealt with.

    I highly doubt that all those Imperial officers would be willing to give up the power they?d amassed. Some would defect, yes. But not many. The Stormtroopers would almost certainly remain faithful to the Empire itself. The majority of the galaxies firepower would still be under Imperial control.

    While the Emperor was dead, and the fall of the Empire inevitable, it was still an era of rebellion, not yet of Republic. The last line of Return of the Jedi is not ?Long live the Republic.? It is ?Long live the Alliance.? The Alliance, as in the Rebel Alliance. So at that point, even according to the novelization, they are still a rebellion. They?ve won, but it is by no means as simple as flying to Coruscant and holding elections. Years of fighting would have followed.

    (Some figures in this post are based upon the writings of Carl Sagan)



    In short, I believe that the war with the Empire would have and should have continued for some years yet. You may argue that this is fantasy, and with the defeat of the Emperor that the Empire should die as well, that I?m expecting rEUlism. But fantasy is by no means always ?happily ever after.?

    The Battle of Five armies in the Hobbit killed legions of Orcs, but there were still plenty more left over to chase the Fellowship of the Ring through Moria and to bring Gondor to its knees. The death of Sauron in Return of the King did
     
  3. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Excellent ideas everyone!

    Genghis, to clarify a point, the concerns about originals & non-mains becoming more popular than the mains was a question raised by someone else in regards to my statements, not concerns of my own.

    I notice that most people, with the notable exception of Genghis12, are focusing on post-RotJ Expanded Universe material. Remember however, that my premise has you starting from complete scratch.

    For the OT-era, I'd love to see stories involing some of the other members of the Rebellion, like perhaps the story of the hero or heroes who were able to acquire the Death Star plans.

    Perhaps also some stories of idealistic youngsters trying to start a revolt on their homeworld. Or how about stories involving Mon Mothma and the start of the Rebel Alliance. This has been touched on briefly by Zahn, with the story of Garm Bel Iblis.

    Another interesting thing would be to see the adventures of Porkins, John Dee, Dutch, Tyree, and the like; stories of the early battles against the Empire.

    I've gotta commend Marvel Comics & also the people at LucasArts who gave us TIE Fighter Flight Simulator for some excellent stories of Imperial intrigue. Marvel brought us the assassination attempt on Vader, and TIE sim. brought us a coup attempt by a renegade Grand Admiral. The X-Wing Flight Simulator series also gave us some excellent stories about the struggle against the Empire & eventual relocation to the Hoth system.

    Also, like I've said previously, I like the notion of the Emperor having "hands" to deal with situations where Lord Vader would be too high-profile. Some stories featuring such characters would be interesting.

    As far as Jedi surviving the Purge, likely the stories would fall into one of two types: either apprentices & lesser Knights dealing with Inquisitors or "Hands," or stories involving the great Jedi Knights of old meeting their destiny in a fashion similar to Extinction or Darth Maul-Shadow Hunter. Or, we could go a different route and see a Jedi fall to the dark side, becoming an anti-hero of sorts. In another twist on Imperial intrigue, we could see a story or stories involving a darksider or cabal of darksiders conspiring to replace Vader as a Sith Lord.

    For post-RotJ, I'd see Lando or Han filling the role that Zahn had for Talon Karrde, namely a liason between the Republic and "entrepeneurs of questionable legality"

    I think that I'm in agreement with most everyone else here about the Empire not laying down & dying right away. There could be more stories of Imperial intrigue involving hardcore "New Order" loyalists & power-grabbing warlords in addition to the Empire/Alliance struggles. A lot of that can be seen in the Rogue Squadron storyline. Gandalf, I LOVE your idea about the liberation of Bespin! :cool:

    Also like Gandalf, I feel that immediately is too soon, & four years is too late for Han & Leia to marry & have children.

    I feel that the EU was dead-on about Luke being hesitant to teach new a new generation of Jedi. However, I think that there would be stories of Luke facing some of the Emperor's old minions. He'd defeat some, and convert others. Perhaps Luke would have a "moment of clarity" when facing a darksider, and realize the gravity of what would happen should he fall without having trained any others. This moment of clarity would also give him the insight to banish any doubts about his ability as well. Perhaps he could have a dream about or be visited by the spirit(s) of Obi-Wan/Yoda/Anakin similar to what Zahn wrote about at the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy.

    I'd imagine that he'd take Leia as his first Padawan, and together they'd find & train others, perhaps some Padawans who had escaped the Purges as I mentioned above; also redeemed Inquisitors/Hands/anti-heroes.

    I'd say that Luke, Leia, and the first few Jedi Knights that they train would establish a new Jedi Temple, though I don't know that it would be on Coruscant. I'd say that Endor would be a stellar l
     
  4. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Merkurian...
    "Genghis, to clarify a point, the concerns about originals & non-mains becoming more popular than the mains was a question raised by someone else in regards to my statements, not concerns of my own."

    Aaaah, I apologize for attributing them to you.

    "I notice that most people, with the notable exception of Genghis12, are focusing on post-RotJ Expanded Universe material."

    Yes, there's that damn annoying mistaken belief that the expanded universe "began" in 1991 with stories focusing on post-ROTJ. [face_plain]

    "Or how about stories involving Mon Mothma and the start of the Rebel Alliance. This has been touched on briefly by Zahn, with the story of Garm Bel Iblis."

    Remember Crispin's Rebel Dawn. The "Rebel Alliance" actually began with Bria Tharen when she tried organizing a handful of species together in a loose alliance against the Empire. However, she was neither persuasive enough nor charismatic enough to cement such an alliance. She defaulted to Mon Mothma later to make her "Rebel dreams" a reality. The Rebel Alliance essentially had its origins in Han Solo's Smuggler's Revolt involving Rik Duel, Lando and the gang. This showed such a dream was possible to Bria who attempted something bigger than the loose alliance of smugglers standing against the Empire. Bel Iblis, etc. didn't come into the picture until later. In any case, IMO, Crispin went into much more detail of the origins of the Rebellion than Zahn did.
     
  5. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Hmm. I never read Crispin's Solo stories, so I was unaware of Bria's attempt to start an Alliance.

    However, Daley's Solo stories are an excellent example of what I was referring to about stories that take place in a specific sector/region of the galaxy (the Corporate Sector, in this case) without having a major effect on the galaxy at large.

    Tharen's attempt at starting an Alliance is also an example of what I was referring to about originals not being as good in their vocations as movie characters. Now if I hear that Bria Tharen gave Mon Mothma the idea of forming an Alliance...
     
  6. Bothan_Jedi

    Bothan_Jedi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    I would do away with the whole Mon Mothma/ Bail Organa characters, and replace them with a single one: General Bel Iblis. Remeber, he ran his own private war against Palpatine when he and Mon Mothma went separate ways. I have always thought the Bel Iblis' no nonsense approach and more hard-core fighting style would make for better story telling. If he led the Rebellion, I'm sure the Empire would have fallen much sooner.

    Not that the EU as it is now is bad. On the contrary, I think its great. Its just semi-pacifist characters like Mon Mothma that really ticked me off...
     
  7. DVader316

    DVader316 Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2000
    Id write a new novel all about the Wraiths, taking place in the current continuity. In other words, my novel would not include OT characters at all if possible. I would write a story focusing on Face Loran's ability to lead his Intelligence team behind Vong lines, putting the team in deep deep cover and strategically placing them to strike only when the time is right. I'd write it so the strike team somehow lost contact with Intel and were forced to stay in deep cover on a Vong worldship for the forseeable future, fulfilling the mission profile no matter what and how long it took. This mission would not take weeks, or even months -- but years. If all went according to plan the undercover Wraiths would complete their mission in HC5.

    I know it isnt much but its all that I ocud come up with off of the top of my head. I'll try and put together a better synopsis later.
     
  8. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
  9. kz1000_jay

    kz1000_jay Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2001
    Genghis, perhaps you can help me out with the source of your statement that Zahn called other EU authors "liars and conivers?" I've been searching, but so far haven't found it. So many websites, too little time, LOL! Thanks in advance.
     
  10. Terranix

    Terranix Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Zahn was asked during an interview what he thought about there being multiple Emperor's Hands, & Zahn said that there was only one Emperor's Hand (His one, Mara.) & that anyone who said otherwise was either lying or conniving.

    To be fair, he may have meant it in a book character type way, ie, someone might say there are multiple Hands to unnerve someone, or to further some scheme. However it is also likley that he was allowing his tendency to show contempt & casual disregard for other EU writers & their ideas.

    Ghengis is in the ''Castrate Zahn whilst laughing'' camp, so his reply will probably be bias, though more detailed & funny in places.

    ''--Tim ''I invented Star Wars & George Lucas is a liar'' Zhan--''

    It's still funny. :D
     
  11. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    actually it was against other authors. The question asked to him, was what do you think of this other authors article about adventure's hands, and he answered by saying that other authors are lying and conniving.
     
  12. kz1000_jay

    kz1000_jay Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2001
    Actually, Terranix, the exact questions and answers are in the Emperor's Hands thread that Val was so good to bump up for my benefit. Check it out for the reference to the complete interview with Zahn and Stackpole.
     
  13. RNolan

    RNolan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2000
    The Empire wins. Period.

    Yours
     
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