EU fans...How do you personally view the SW continuity?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Kane_Skywalker, Aug 10, 2001.

?

EU fans...How do you personally view the SW continuity?

Poll closed Aug 30, 2001.
Only the Star Wars films are canon. If George Lucas didn't write it, it's rubbish. 5 vote(s) 7.4%
I consider the films, novelizations, scripts and radio dramas to be canon, but nothing else. 4 vote(s) 5.9%
Only that which Lucasfilm Licensing says is canon ( Everything except the Infinities products. ) 15 vote(s) 22.1%
It's all canon and can all fit. That includes TV specials, cartoons, kids books, videogames and the 19 vote(s) 27.9%
I only accept the stories that I like. Goodbye Glove of Darth Vader! 25 vote(s) 36.8%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Exactly.

    So if George Lucas would say what is the "final word" on anything, it'd most definetly be everything he has let his company produce, basically.

    I find it funny that a lot of canonists always say how Lucas is the prime source of SW stories, and that it all comes out of him...and then they hate "Attack of the Clones" so much that they start getting pissed and making petitions that go nowhere.
  2. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "stephen...That's how me and Valiento see it."

    speak for yourself, ;), there are things I refuse to fit in, such things as the flight of the falcon, anh:infinnitys, the fotf story gives me major annoyances from the fact it trys to say falcon is a one of the kind prototype, and it conflicts with so many sources. Really it's not that good of a story. when it comes to han shoot first, or greedo shoot first, I prefere the original vission, the ones that was played up so well in ANH radio drama.
  3. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    I just meant "most stuff". There's always about 2% of the stuff that either can't fit in, or it's hard to do it.
  4. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
  5. Jedi_Lila Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2001
    star 2
    I pick and choose the books that I like for my own personal canon. Things I don't find believable or in character I carve out of my timeline. For example, Han and Leia getting married and having kids, Luke rebuilding the Jedi order, Leia and Mon Mothma setting up the government, Luke getting married is canon by me. Things like Boba Fett returning from the dead, 10 people getting the Death Star plans, Luke turning to the Dark Side, Leia being a Jedi and then not a Jedi and then a Jedi and then not a Jedi is not.

    Just my own opinion :)
  6. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Regarding your first two complaints...

    Boba Fett never died. And Death Star plans were captured a total of four times. ( Katarn's mission tied into some of the other "hand-offs", Operation skyhook etc. ) The second set was put together with the first, to get a complete schematic of the Death Star.

    The other two plans were stolen by Durga the Hutt, and plans were also downloaded by Admiral Daala from Maw Installation. No official source said what happened to that set of plans, but us continuity repairmen think that that's how Death Star III was built for Star Tours.
  7. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "and plans were also downloaded by Admiral Daala from Maw Installation. No official source said what happened to that set of plans, but us continuity repairmen think that that's how Death Star III was built for Star Tours."

    we must have different theories.
  8. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    I was basically quoting TimeTales. Isn't that what they say? I need more time to develop a full theory for Death Star III, but I have many ideas, and that is a good one.
  9. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    There are too many continuity errors between the novelizations and the EU, and in the EU itself for all the EU to be canon.
  10. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    There are no major continuity errors anywhere in the EU, and nearly all of the minor ones have been retconned.
  11. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "I was basically quoting TimeTales. Isn't that what they say? I need more time to develop a full theory for Death Star III, but I have many ideas, and that is a good one."

    Time tales actually doesn't have a theory yet, I'm currently writing one with matt, and verge, for timetales. I'll send you a copy just as soon as we finish, should be pretty soon.
  12. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Oh come on.

    1) Leia is a full Jedi in Dark Empire, and then she's totally incompetent in the Force the JAT.

    2) It says in the ROTJ novelization Leia is Han's first love, but then in the HST Crispin had Bria Tharen be Han's first love.

    3) It says in the ROTJ novelization that Luke had not been back to Tatooine since ANH, and SOTE contradicted that.
  13. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    My vote goes for "I only accept the stories that I like. Goodbye Glove of Darth Vader!". It's so much whether or not I like it but whether or not it messes with a lot of other sources. GoDV simply screws too many things up. I mean, a base on Dagobah!? But I would say that I consider 99.5% of Star Wars stuff to be in the continuity.
  14. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "1) Leia is a full Jedi in Dark Empire, and then she's totally incompetent in the Force the JAT."

    actually it was the baby giving her more powers and skills, combining there energy.

    "2) It says in the ROTJ novelization Leia is Han's first love, but then in the HST Crispin had Bria Tharen be Han's first love."

    yes, a contradiction, but rather small one, imho. bria was his first love, and leia his first "true" love(the one that really would have went somewhere). kind of like ESB says hobbie klivian died, then he shows up in x-wing books. But a fix between it and esb was made, officialy, and a joke was made about it.

    "3) It says in the ROTJ novelization that Luke had not been back to Tatooine since ANH, and SOTE contradicted that."

    The scene from SOTE on tatooine, were he makes his saber, is actually a scene lucas early draft scripts, had filmed a tiny bit of, and can be seen in ROTJ Radio Drama's.
  15. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    I'll let Valiento handle this one. :) He explained it much better than I could have.
  16. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Wow you guys are fast! :)

    Valiento - I don't know if was trained *fully* but at any rate she was WAY more powerful than she was in the JAT, even before she was pregnant, so I don't think Anakin had much to do with it. You can go *forwards* but I never heard of going *backwards* in the Force. And why did Luke tell her she was Jedi in the CT and then in BP she wasn't a Jedi? I mean her Force skills have really been handled inconsistently in the EU.

    Oh, and about the first drafts - well those aren't canon or even official continuity either. There are a lot of cut scenes in the movies that are just that - cut scenes, they aren't continuity.


    Twi'lek, the novelizations can't be "wrong"....They are the only books that are considered canon by LFL. They're higher than the EU in the canon ladder. A contradiction between the EU and the novelizations, the novelizations come first according to LFL. If *you* don't consider them canon that's your decision....but LFL considers them canon and they don't consider the books canon. So you can't say "The novelizations are wrong." and be correct...you could say "In my personal canon, I don't count the novelizations as canon," but you can't say they're wrong.
  17. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    The thing is, the novels are overridden by the movies all the time. For example, the ESB novel says that Hobbie dies destroying Veers' AT-AT before he can take out the shield generators. Since the movie shows that Veers actually did blow the generators, we can therefore assume that Hobbie did not crash his speeder and both he and Veers still live.

    To me, the novelizations are just another point of view on the movie. They do not tell the story in and of themselves, because the movie overrides them at every turn.
  18. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah I know that Twi'lek. But the movies are higher than the novelizations, so a contradiction in the novelizations by the movies, of course the movies come first, because the movies are higher than the novelizations in the canon ladder.

    Likewise, since the novelizations are higher than the EU in the canon ladder, a contradiction between the EU and the novelizations, would give precedence to the novelizations. According to LFL the canon ladder is: movies, screenplays, novelizations, radio dramas, official material (EU).
  19. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Valiento - I don't know if was trained *fully* but at any rate she was WAY more powerful than she was in the JAT, even before she was pregnant, so I don't think Anakin had much to do with it."

    Note she was pregnant in DE. She did not get pregnant in the middle of the story. DE takes place before JAT. Anakin was born during DE2. Leia only showed power in DE1, while the baby was in her womb.


    "You can go *forwards* but I never heard of going *backwards* in the Force."

    I have no idea what your talking about, your the one that got the books out of sequence.

    "And why did Luke tell her she was Jedi in the CT and then in BP she wasn't a Jedi?"

    Because she had given up on her jedi heratige for some reason, and decided to go back into here political duties, what would be considered leaving the jedi order in Prequel times.

    "I mean her Force skills have really been handled inconsistently in the EU."

    She has personal problems she needs to come to terms too.
  20. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Twi'lek, the novelizations can't be "wrong"....They are the only books that are considered canon by LFL. They're higher than the EU in the canon ladder. A contradiction between the EU and the novelizations, the novelizations come first according to LFL. If *you* don't consider them canon that's your decision....but LFL considers them canon and they don't consider the books canon. So you can't say "The novelizations are wrong." and be correct...you could say "In my personal canon, I don't count the novelizations as canon," but you can't say they're wrong."

    from secrets of shadows of the empire, ""We have the canon, which includes the movies, the screen plays, the novelizations and the other core works that directly tie into the movies."

    Notice the order of what is canon, or not, first the movies, then the script, then the novelizaions. Script overides the novels, since they were modified, sometimes after the novel went to print, and lucas added in more scenes, sometimes that didn't make it.


    "The thing is, the novels are overridden by the movies all the time. For example, the ESB novel says that Hobbie dies destroying Veers' AT-AT before he can take out the shield generators. Since the movie shows that Veers actually did blow the generators, we can therefore assume that Hobbie did not crash his speeder and both he and Veers still live."

    Note that scene of hobbie crashing is in the radio drama, which is higher level than the novels. Allston repaired the error with a joke, that hobbie is bacta's greatest spoke person. Veers had fired the last shots just before he was hit. Somehow he escaped the explosion alive(thrown away from the blast).


  21. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Well Valiento I read DE a long time ago so I must have remembered the pregnancy timeline wrong. I remember she told Han at the end of the first tape when I was listening to it so I thought she got pregnant near the end. Sorry. But I still never got the impression she was getting her Jedi skills from her baby. I know Anakin helped her fight the cloned Emporer person, but I don't get how he could have helped her do all the Jedi tricks she was doing. And yeah she didn't want to become a Jedi because she had other things to do later on, but I think they should have handled it better instead of the wishy-washy way she would like hover half way between being a Jedi and not.

    Oh well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    EDIT: Yeah, I agree Valiento. If the movies contradict the novelizations, then the novelizations become "wrong" in that area. But if the novelizations contradict the EU, it's the EU that's wrong, not the novelizations, according to LFL.

    Ah well, I gotta go now. Hope you enjoyed my two cents :)
  22. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    My goodness! I thought *I* had "canon" debates over at the 'Aliens' messageboard I moderate (http://aliensvspredator.com/forums/).
    As I see it, there's a canon "hierarchy". I'll put this into terms of the 'Aliens' universe, but it converts to Star Wars easily.

    With 'Aliens', there's the films, the scripts, the novelizations of the films, comics, novelizations of those comics, games, and toys. As I see it, the films rule all. nothing beats the films. If it's on-film, it cannot be disputed. Next come novelizations and scripts. If it's in the novel and not in the film, but the film doesn't explicitly contradict it (i.e., "Hobbie dies") then it can be accepted. Next come the novelizations of the comics, which explicitly try to fit the comics into the realm of the films (since the original comics DID have continuity errors with the films, when 'Alien3' came out). Next are the comics. Anything not contradicted by anything above is admissable. Next are the games, and finally the toys. This is the heirarchy that most Aliens fans follow, IF they accept anything other than the films at all (there are "purists" who say that anything outside the films, up to and including the scripts and novelizations, are not "canon").

    As I see it with Star Wars, the films rule all. Next are the scripts and novelizations. Next come the major novels, then the WEG sourcebooks. Beneath those are the current Dark Horse comics, then the games, and finally the Marvel comics and TV cartoons (that SHOULD broadly cover eveything). Somewhere in there are all the reference materials (the Essential Guides, SW Encyclopedia, etc) probably just beneath the films. That means, if the films say something, and a novel says otherwise, the film wins. If a novel says something, and the WEG sourcebook based off the novel says otherwise (i.e., the big Furgan debate that went around about 2 days ago), then the novel itself wins. if the WEG books say that A-wings weren't developed until post, Hoth, and the Droids TV show says otherwise, then the WEG books win out.

    I also factor in how MUCH evidence there is on a topic. I.e., if I've got 9 sources saying one thing, and 1 equally-ranked source saying another (like the IG-88 debate. 5 novels/WEG books/Essential Guides say there were 4, as opposed to 1 WEG book saying there were 5), well, majority rules.
  23. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    agree to disagree about what?

    I was just stating what it says in the various background info from sourcbooks and things about DE, i'm not trying to argue with you.

    Yes it might have been better if they wrote more consistance for leia, but it's too late, not worth my time to worry about.
  24. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    ". if the WEG books say that A-wings weren't developed until post, Hoth, and the Droids TV show says otherwise, then the WEG books win out."

    You forget that the tv show was written by lucas, and came out before WEG. what lucas says outweighs any thing WEG says.
  25. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    I wish we could have these sorts of honest, well-thought-out discussions over in the movies thread. It seems that every time I answer a question with something from the EU, one of the canonists jump all over me and say my answer is wrong.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.