EU is canon: Proof inside (Marvel stuff too)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ludicrous, Mar 21, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jeremyguy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 1998
    star 4
    Why does an old quote by Sansweet have more weight than a recent one by a LFL editor?
  2. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    That's what I was thinking......

    And what's with the sig....think you're enlightening the masses? :p
  3. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    ::Going through old threads::

    Interesting one, considering recent canon events.
  4. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    And Sansweet didn't say that, Chris Cerasi did and Sansweet quoted him. As close as I can determine, Cerasi is Allan Kausch's replacement at LFL, since he was only mentioned in book acknowledgements recently (EoV).

    Even Sansweet himself, in the Star Wars Encyclopedia labels everything not touched in some manner by Lucas and his supposed "vision" quasi-canon.
  5. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    I think the official line is that there is no official line :)
  6. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    This is the official line: We will continue to talk out of both sides of our mouths for all eternity.
  7. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Boy, I need to expand my knowledge of Star Wars EU to something other than just the books. I had no idea there was a whole Canon War going on out there between the Marvelites and the Non-Marvelites. Now the war is over, and I missed it. Drat! :_|

    On a sidenote, I can definitely sympathize with you non-Marvelites being a bit miffed at having the Marvel comics recognized as Canon. I feel much the same way about the Dark Forces stuff, and apparently I'm one of the only ones! ;) Many people seem to feel Kyle Katarn is this unbelievable Jedi Knight who could make a HUGE difference in the NJO....I just don't see him as anything other than a video game character. I would be a bit miffed if he were to pop up in the NJO all of a sudden. ;)

    JMA
  8. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "I feel much the same way about the Dark Forces stuff, and apparently I'm one of the only ones!"

    well, just to let you know unlike marvel which had it's period were it was considered close to appocryphal(thank goodness that lfl reconsidered).

    The games have always been considered part of the EU's continuity, I recommend "secrets of shadows of the empire" on how it explains that", and if you find the old interviews on the game, it's strat guide(the story itself was created before the game was even put into production(the book also includes inuniverse thoughts by kyle katarn on his missions, as well as the complete script, on paper.), george lucas talking about the game and story on a tv interview, etc, which explains all that.

    so be upset all you want, have a temper tantrum if you like, :D, but it ain't going to get you anywhere, ;), :D.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JMA...
    "I had no idea there was a whole Canon War going on out there between the Marvelites and the Non-Marvelites."

    There actually wasn't a "war." There was only delusions of non-Marvelites that they convinced themselves Marvel was somehow different.

    They were right - it was different - but not in the way they thought. Of all the expanded universe products, Marvel had the strongest ties to Lucas himself. It was Lucas himself who handpicked both Marvel and Roy Thomas specifically to tell his "sequel" stories. He read it and directly approved it. In fact, he and Marvel both had the same ideas for the post-adaptation stories, developed independently of each other. These were the stories seen in Marvel #7 and beyond.

    Of course as Lucas moved on to other projects, the task switched to Lucasfilm Vice Presidents doing the approvals. Marvel had their own Lucasfilm liason.

    This is in contrast to the post Marvel EU, which simply had Lucasfilm, Ltd. "peons" (editors) coordinating the stories.

    Marvel has always been "canon" - if by canon, one means directly from Lucas. Star Wars Gamer #3 merely confirmed what everyone already knew. The war had been won long before it ever started.

    Now the same battle is being waged by the Anti-Non-Movie-Canonists and the Non-Movie-Canonists. Of course, we know it was Lucas who dreamed up his non-movie canon, and viewed it just as importantly or more importantly as his movies in the scheme of things. And again, the war has been won by EU fans long before the anti-EU'ers decided to fight it.
  10. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "so be upset all you want, have a temper tantrum if you like, , but it ain't going to get you anywhere, , . "

    Yeah yeah, it's not a tantrum thing, it's more of an irritation thing. If he's officially part of standard EU, why hasn't he been mentioned outside of Dark Forces related material? I dunno, I just have a hard time buying that. ::shrug:: Like I said, I'm in the minority, it's just something I disagree with.

    JMA
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JMA...
    "If he's officially part of standard EU, why hasn't he been mentioned outside of Dark Forces related material?"

    So, by that arguement Thrawn is not a part of standard EU because he wasn't mentioned in NJO:Edge of Victory: Rebirth?

    Each product/story does not have to include every other item in it for those items to remain a part.

    Kyle is officially a part of standard EU because Dark Forces products are officially a part of standard EU, not because any later products include him or not.
  12. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    well, think of this way, Standard EU is were ever you find a story. Each author likes to create and use there own characters. Hence why you might see a character in one book, who fades into obscurity in another(EU limbo.), 100's of characters end up this way.

    Take keyan farlander, maarek stele, and azameens(or was it there competitors?) for instance, they are game characters, never mentioned in Bantam's line, of the EU.

    first from x-wing, Keyan farlander had his own novella, and continuited novelization in the Novel/strat guide

    Yet, we have stackpole who mentions elements from x-wing, missions being on the simulator, in his x-wing books.

    and in darktide, keyen was given a throwaway line noting his existance as a hero and the one to fly the y-wing at the deathstar(something the novel/strat mentions), we always knew he existed because of lfl's policy that all things make up the EU.

    Next onto maarek stele, also had his own novella, and novelized novel/strat guide.
    Recently he was given a section of an article in gamer #5, giving us a bit more about his past and what he was up to during NJO times.

    Next on x-wing alliance, azammeen(or there competitors?), cloak of deception mentions them.

    So notice just because something doens't mention characters from a game(besides resource books), that doesn't elliminate them from the EU in LFL's eyes. It's just that no one has decided to use kyle katarn of give him a throw away line yet. But it could happen, but not unless someone decides to use other viable characters rather than there own created ones. You'll notice lots of characters have went into limbo, that were mentioned in bantam, and it could take along time for them to be used again. So don't look at Limbo to be an excuse for none existance. It's a big galaxy and there lot's of places characters could be hanging out. They don't have to all be in the same spot of space.
  13. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "So, by that arguement Thrawn is not a part of standard EU because he wasn't mentioned in NJO:Edge of Victory: Rebirth?"

    I fail to see your reasoning on that one....Thrawn has been mentioned in several books outside of his first appearances, whichever book that was. The last time I remember hearing about him was in Ruin, a couple of books ago. He's a character that's been repeatedly developed throughout the Star Wars novels. Like I said, I understand that I'm in a vast minority, I just refuse to acknowledge Katarn as a viable character until he shows up outside of Dark Forces.

    JMA

  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JMA...
    "I fail to see your reasoning on that one....Thrawn has been mentioned in several books outside of his first appearances..."

    There is no difference between Katarn and say another EU character like Thrawn. The only difference is that Thrawn has appeared slightly more "non-original" items than Katarn has. However, Katarn has indeed appeared in non-Dark Forces items.
  15. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Has he appeared in literature outside of the Dark Forces novelizations?

    "There is no difference between Katarn and say another EU character like Thrawn."

    Yes well, that's where we come to the heart of the argument, and I doubt it's something that can be reasoned out. It comes down to the fact that I still feel Katarn is solely a video game character, and will until his is mentioned outside of a novel bearing the Dark Forces logo. The instant that happens, I'll be there to officially welcome him into "Jedi Master Aaron's Expanded Universe". But he hasn't, so I don't, as of yet. ::shrug:: Weird quirk maybe, but I see the novels as the true extension of Lucas' original vision, and Katarn hasn't appeared in the novels besides through his video game. Thrawn on the other hand, has appeared solely in the novels, making him just as viable in my opinion as say, Mara Jade or Talon Karrde.

    JMA
  16. El_Cid_Campeador Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2001
    *sigh*

    JediMasterAaron, he already has appeared in other media.

    Commander Kyle Katarn has been mentioned in the Star Wars Encyclopedia, The Essential Guide to Droids, and The Essential Chronology, as well as having an action figure.
  17. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    But those are reference materials, not Bantam or DR novels.
  18. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Actually the Dark Forces novels, were done by a joint opperation between Dark Horse, and Berkely blvd.(a subsidiary of bantam books).

    He also appeared as a cameo in Jedi Academy: Leviathan.

    Lord Jerec, essentially a Dark Forces Character, was in one of the GOF novels, plus having his past expanded upon in "the Darkside sb".

    Jabba's spaceship from DF1, has appeared in numorous sources, including Jabba Comics

    etc. etc.
  19. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GAW...
    "But those are reference materials, not Bantam or DR novels."

    And how exactly does this makes them any less a part of the "standard EU(?not my term)"? :D
  20. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    My meaning in that is the fact that not oner author except the guy who wrote the Dark Forces graphic novels has made use of him in a novel format. The only way he's inserted into novels is through after-the-fact retconning.
  21. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    The sad thing about all of this is, I can't give another example of a similar situation, because I'm horridly unfamiliar with the rest of EU, excluding books and the Dark Forces game. I have just never considered the two one and the same, or part of the same whole. It's much like GAW said...no other author has made use of Katarn in the novels, outside of Dark Forces, and I personally have always considered the novels to be the core of EU.

    JMA
  22. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    the Katarn Commandos have had a mention though, and he led them IIRC
  23. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    speaking of the core stories, it was kyle katarn's Metaphysical past history, which makes the basis for Darth Bane's past, which is the basis for why there is only 2 sith.

    In other words, "Jedi Vs Sith" is based off of info that first came from Jedi Knight, and Dark Forces novels.
  24. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    And how did Kyle Katarn influence what took place a log, long, long time ago before he was born?
  25. El_Cid_Campeador Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Kyle Katarn is the alter ego of a warrior in the Battle of Ruusan, which was first mentioned and described in Jedi Knight, and has been now expanded by Jedi vs. Sith, which indicates that the loss of the Army of Light and the Brotherhood of Darkness led to Lord Bane's creation of the Rule of Two.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.