Lit EU vs. Films?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sable_Hart, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    A consistent characteristic or, in my opinion, problem in the Star Wars universe is the discrepancies between the film and EU. The contradictions range from minor to major and most of us are likely familiar with more than a few.

    I pondered this further when I was doing some more research on the Sith Emperor from TOR and rewatched Revenge of the Sith, where Palpatine tells Anakin "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved."

    We know from Dave Filoni and George that they believe the films have the right to run roughshod over the EU when they see fit, since "it's George's story."

    But what about when the reverse occurs? I think that a flawlessly seamless world is impossible, but does anyone (especially VIPs, authors, and those here connected with LFL) have any insight as to why these issues come up so often?
    Alexrd likes this.
  2. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    While there are contradictions, the example you have used is not one of them, and is an example of an expectation of detail that is too high and creates contradictions where there are none. That quote, for example, refers to everything of which Palpatine is aware, which is basically the Banite era Sith of the previous thousand years. Everything before that moves outside the realm of history and into archeology.

    The Star Wars universe features a history that results in immense, catastrophic knowledge loss across its various periods of intense galaxy-spanning warfare. This is logical, since such massive conflicts generally involve blowing apart the HoloNet, which is what stores most of the knowledge in the galaxy. That's not where we are with data storage on Earth - yet (imagine blowing apart every server on Earth in the year 2100 to get some idea of what happens in Star Wars).

    So Palpatine simply did not know that Vitiate had found a path to pseudo-immortality in another time. This happens a lot in Star Wars - we piece together a universe revealed gradually through the perspective of people with limited knowledge of its events. Essentially the continuity is built on a shifting foundation, contradictions are inevitable. All large fantasy settings with a shared-world environment have contradictions, but Star Wars is particularly prone to it because it was never designed with this in mind - unlike say, the Forgotten Realms.
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  3. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Which strains credulity past its breaking point. Vitiate is the mastermind behind (arguably) the second greatest "Sith empire" in galactic history other than Palpatine's own; you mean to say that Palpatine would somehow be unaware of the fact that he lived 1,400 years? If it were some unknown mystic deep in galactic history, I'd understand, but Vitiate is simply too high profile.
  4. Samayel_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2012
    star 2
  5. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Frankly Star Wars takes place over such along time, and Palpatine is not "the Devil" or any such semi divine/demonic eldric creature he can be considerd talking out of his booty. Or just plain ignorant of the past. Just because it exists in continuity doesnt mean everyone has to know about it. After all the Emperor didnt cheat death after I droped his rock chandiler on him.
  6. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    3,500 years ago on Earth...um...not a lot of concrete information about those days. I believe we're in Yellow Emperor territory. He suppossedly achieved immortality too, but how may good Taoists today actually believe that?

    We are talking about vast gulfs of time broken by multiple profound dark ages. When we get into Sith history we're also talking about astonishing levels of disinformation. Hardly any of Vitiate's own contemporaries truly understood the full truth about him. He 'died' multiple times, he had different bodies, spiritual manifestations, it goes on. Heck, during TOR you meet a bunch of people who believe Revan replaced the Emperor and ruled in his name for centuries.

    It's worth noting that, in Book of Sith, Luke can't even confirm the dates or events recorded in Malgus' journal fragment. Historical knowledge is clearly limited. Now, it is fair to say that the nature of Star Wars history is surprisingly nebulous. Lucas deliberately wrote the movies that way and it matches more with the 1970s understanding of data storage that society possessed - still embedded in paper that could be destroyed by physical location losses - than the cloud storage concept we are presently moving towards.
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  7. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

    Oh...
  8. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah, apparently Yoda didn't have tabs on all the Jedi when the Purge happened. How many former Jedi has Luke come across? I can't even remember.
  9. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Easiest fix for that one is that he didn’t consider them to be Jedi anymore (or really didn’t know), though yeah it also always bugged the hell out of me that there are dozens upon dozens of Jedi the Emperor somehow missed or didn’t convert.
    ILNP likes this.
  10. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    That Wookieepedia list of 56 includes a large number of characters as 'survivors' that are more realistically people of indeterminate status who were simply still alive at some point during the dark times and never showed up again. It also includes several characters who weren't properly part of the post-Ruusan Jedi Order (Celeste Morne? Really? Really?), and several dark jedi who converted to the Emperor's side post Order-66. I'd put the actual number of Jedi who might reasonably be considered worthy of the name at 10-15. Out of an order of 10000, maybe 5000 of whom were alive in 19 BBY (plus considerably more Padawans, Younglings, and Service Corps personnel) 15 survivors would mean Palpatine got 99.7% of the Jedi. At that point I think we can excuse a little hyperbole on Yoda's part.
  11. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    I am hoping the sith will get a proper name change in the EU.

    the

    Coalition
    On
    Killing
    Everyone

    Truly after all look at Darth.

    But seriously, it is better to enjoy the mterial without driving ourselves mad about the coninuity
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In Darth Plagueis, Plagueis seems to have heard of Vitiate, though we never see him talk about Vitiate in front of Palpatine. But the real "fix" here is to assume that when Palpatine speaks of "cheating death" he's talking about something very specific: Plagueis' ability, which he used to revive Venamis. It is arguable that earlier forms of so-called "immortality" are substantively different.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 2, 2013
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  13. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    When the films stop contradicting themselves, then they can talk. :p
  14. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    3,500 years on Earth is not the same as 3,500 years in the GFFA-- they were still extraordinarily technologically advanced and had the means to document and record their history extensively.

    But setting this specific issue aside, the bottom line is that some people in the EU see the films, hear these lines, and deliberately contradict them. My question, for the purpose of this thread, is why authors elect to do that when the EU is subordinate to the films. Is it that the EU and films really are separate worlds as Lucas has suggested? Is it vengeance for perceived slights against the EU?

    When the films contradict the EU, we know Lucas feels he has every right to do so. What happens when the reverse occurs?
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Jan 3, 2013
  15. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    The only thing the EU did that did not correspond to the movies was bringing the Sith back after ROTJ.

    I think most contradictions (such as Ki-Adi having children) were made before the movie it contradicts (in this case, TPM) was released.
  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Unfortunately, it wasn't.
    Sitara likes this.
  17. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Countered
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 3, 2013
  18. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Let's break it down according to that list.

    Not even canon
    Damien Tantrellius
    Roni von Wasaki

    Killed during the purge, not sure why she's listed
    Fable Astin's mother

    Turned dark, don't count
    Beldorion
    Winslau Da'k
    Dray
    A'Sharad Hett
    Jerec
    Danaan Kerr
    Maw
    Quarmall
    Taselda
    Antinnis Tremayne
    Urootar

    Survived Order 66, not necessarily the purge
    Klossi Anno
    Kina Ha
    Jax Pavan
    Plett
    Valara Saar

    Died during the GCW
    Death Star prisoner
    Gel
    Ylenic It'kla
    Kai Justiss
    Ferus Olin
    Rune
    Echuu Shen-Jon

    Still alive as of ANH, possibly longer
    Drun Cairnwick
    Gruu Dunrik
    Drakka Judarrl
    Kaoln
    Rahm Kota
    Matarmeno Krahnn
    Nos'lyn
    Qid Proko
    Tyneir Renz
    Rorr'hn
    Corwin Shelvay
    Dorn Tavers
    Bre'ano Umakk
    Antaria Wellos

    Still alive as of ROTJ
    Aqinos
    Ood Bnar
    Empatojayos Brand
    Ikrit
    Bardan Jusik
    K'Kruhk
    Ephaan Kenzon
    Sinsor Khal
    Celeste Morne
    Qu Rahn
    T'ra Saa
    Travgen
    Vergere
    Vima-Da-Boda
    Winslau Da'k's Jedi Master

    So it's like 15-30, right now, although I'm sure more will be invented in the future. For my money, the only ones who shouldn't count are the ones with airtight excuses: Ood Bnar, Celeste Morne, Ikrit, and Vergere. Everyone else should have been dead before the OT started.

    I've never even heard of most of these characters, they're all from some sourcebook or the Galaxies MMO. Keeping established characters like K'Kruhk and T'ra Saa alive just because they're popular is bad enough, but at this point it's like they're inventing nothing characters who will never be used for anything just for the hell of it.

    This is one of my least favorite things the EU has done, especially because there is no valid reason for it. The Jedi were all killed; it's an established fact of this universe, so if someone doesn't like that fact they shouldn't be writing for this universe. I doubt their one-off nobody character is special enough to warrant exception.
    Dr. Steve Brule likes this.
  19. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    >Ignores the above radio drama quote

    Really I don't get being anal retentive having less then 29 Jedi alive in an Galaxy with thousands of worlds is even an issue when the Empire has numbers in what Trillions? Your really underestimating how vast the GFFA is
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 3, 2013
  20. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I'm not making a fuss over contradictions that the EU authors could not have known about in advance. But there is plenty that they did know about and continued to ignore.
  21. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    That dosent mean much, Stone tablets and paper last alot longer than CDs, DVDs and, and hard drives which all require very intesive mantinance besides "Store in a cool dry place".

    One problem he United States is considering is how in after a state of total social collapse and dark age to warn future generations away from toxic/nuclear waste storage sights. Biggest problem being that anything that would last through such an event will just as likely inspire curisoity and exploration rather than avoidance.

    As of the movie contradicting the books, the movies contradict themsleves and contradict the Lucas computer animated shows. It if full of contradictions in the end these contradictions you have targeted can be easily explained away via character ignorance. Other contradictions have to be shrugged off, mistakes happen, bad decisions are made, minds and storypaths are changed, and contradictions will occur. It is the nature of fictional franchise.
  22. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    This isn't about when the films contradict anything; when they do, it's because Lucas changed his mind and he clearly feels he has the authority to do so. This is about those who do NOT have such authority to do so and yet do it anyway. Let's stick to the topic.
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Yet LFL does have just that authority and all of this stuff has been permitted!

    You could ascribe the Jedi surviving point to being one of realism, it is unrealistic for the Empire to be so good that all 10,000 Jedi die, so having15-20 survive a tiny fraction at best doesn't impair the credibility of the story, it could even be argued to enhance it. Plus, it suits Sidious to have a bare handful of Jedi to invoke as bogeymen too.

    For things like Vitiate, that's where you need someone like Sinrebirth as Vitiate is a post-ROTS creation.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Jan 3, 2013
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  24. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    So you submit that the various authors and editors assume the authority to contradict the films at whim?

    The Jedi purge becomes more problematic for me when every Tom, Sith, and Harry has brought the order to its knees. KotOR 2, I'm looking at you.
  25. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    I've never been a fan of putting the films on a pedestal, nor of adhering to George Lucas' vision. And it's not every Tom, Sith, and Harry- it's one previous time that the Order has been purged.