Lit EU vs. Films?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sable_Hart, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah, Palps is kind of a monumental ham par excellence. He puts Ezio Auditore to shame, and half of the appeal of Ezio is his hamminess.
  2. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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  3. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    By that logic no one should even try to avoid contradictions because someone else will come along and fix it later.

    That's not how movies work. If a trustworthy, knowledgeable character says something that is not contradicted by other characters or by events on-screen, it can reliably be assumed to be true. We don't need to see a DNA test to know that Leia is Luke's sister. All we have is Tarkin's word that the Senate was actually dissolved. Maybe no Bothans died to bring them that information. Yoda says that he watched Luke for a long time, but we never see him do that, so maybe he was lying. We also never see Luke's father tell Obi-Wan that he wants his son to have his lightsaber, so maybe he never really... oh, wait.

    "But those are all verifiable events, whereas there's no way Yoda could know if there were other Jedi left." We never see them happen, though, so it's possible all those characters are mistaken, lying, or using hyperbole. What if The Phantom Menace had been an EU story instead of a movie? Would it have been appropriate for the EU to completely rewrite and contort the meaning of Obi-Wan's line in ESB about Yoda being his Jedi Master?

    Luke's story is unchanged because it was written first, but the spirit is definitely different when you know that there are a few dozen other Jedi out there who could have been helping, several of whom were actually members of the Rebel Alliance and yet made no effort to reach out to the Rebellion's poster boy Jedi Knight because they'd already seen the movies and knew the plot in advance.

    Has this ever actually happened? I guess he met Vima-Da-Boda, who of course is a fantastic, highly memorable character whose scintillating interactions with Luke are everyone's favorite part of the Dark Empire sequels. Oh, and Empatajayos Brand, of course, whose past as a Jedi was completely vital to the breakout success of that character and all the fascinating Jedi lore he revealed to Luke.

    Like I've said, I don't object to Jedi with a built-in airtight excuse like Celeste Morne, Ikrit, and Vergere, or ghosts and transplanted memories like Callista and Nichos Marr, or characters who technically weren't even really Jedi like the Iron Knights, or characters who time-traveled into the post-ROTJ era like in Crosscurrent, or Jedi who quit the order before Order 66 like Thracia Cho Leem and Bardan Jusik (even though if they were high-profile enough I think the Empire still would have made it a point to hunt them down), or even Jedi who survived into the Rebellion era but were killed before ROTJ, like Ferus Olin and Ylenic It'kla. If you can come up with a creative loophole for how your character can count as an exception, then fine, whatever, do your OJO survivor character. If you can't, you're contradicting the movies just for the sake of contradicting the movies, which is not something the EU should do.
    Sable_Hart likes this.
  4. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    The ones that I object to are the ones that aided the Alliance during the time that Luke was there.

    Especially that Kota moron. Having Jedi found the Alliance is the stupidest idea to come out of TFU.
  5. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    The movies are more important than the EU but I take the EU and the movies as a complete timeline. The new EU stuff has to follow what the movies have said but the ST has to follow the movies and the EU up to when it is. The EU will be swept away to make room for the ST unfortunately. I'll get over it but will hold out hope.
  6. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Though now apparently wasn't the Rebellion founded in TCW? I haven't seen the new season but wasn't that implied? Jedi in the Rebellion before Luke was pretty stupid. I also don't care for OJO survivors being used all the way up to the Legacy era comics. A couple decades after ROTJ is fine but not 130 years later.
  7. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Nah, the new season doesn't found the Alliance- apparently one of the groups that features in the Onderon arc is later an early contributer to the Alliance.

    See, I don't really mind the Purge survivors that A) Don't interact with the Alliance much/are finished by 0 BBY, B) don't get Mary Sue'd into founding the Alliance, or C) basically go off and do their own thing and for all intents and purposes are no longer Jedi. The OJO Jedi in Legacy are a little goofy, but as far as we know T'ra Saa just kind of photosynthesized on top of Tholme's grave for 160 years so I don't find it overly problematic- plus they killed her off anyway.

    The occasional Purge survivor who briefly comes out of hiding to aid some Alliance cell, only to get terminated by Vader- that I'm fine with. Echuu Shen-Jon in Galactic Battlegrounds is a good example. He pops up briefly, helps Leia out of a tight spot, then gets the banhammer. Same with Ylenic It'kla. He may have advised Bail, but Senator Organa still (pre-TFU) signed the Corellian Treaty of his own volition, on his own principles, without the aid of the Jedi. It's a hugely heroic moment, which is monumentally undercut by TFU.
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  8. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Okay. I haven't seen the season but I do remember talk about it.
    OJO survivors that come back to aid a rebel cell but are killed off by Vader are alright. I still disagree about the OJO being around by the Legacy comics but understand how they got there.
    The people of the galaxy are uniting on their own to rise up and stop the Empire is truly amazing.
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    (my emphasis)

    I think it's simply impossible to get any sort of definitive answer in this respect.

    What is probable is that when an author is asked to come up with a story, they don't consider it to conflict with the films in the way you describe, LFL look over over it and agree and that's that. Cue fan disagreeing with that assessment which brings us to here.
  10. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Corwin Shelvay was Alliance but pretty much only had the skills of a learner. Whats your position on Purge survivors who only have basic training
  11. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Eh. If the learner isn't directly interacting with Luke- i.e., just limited to some resistance cell on the other side of the galaxy- then I don't mind; I can easily see some former Padawan having more gusto than sense and joining up, thinking that their skills would be a boon to the Alliance, and not simply a great big flashing invitation for Vader to make a personal visit. And after 20 years, a lot of the surviving learners would likely have forgotten/broken with enough of the Order's tenets that they would hardly consider themselves to be Jedi anyway. And looking at Corwin's bio, it sounds like he chose to use his skills as a Spec-Ops operative, so I can let it slide.
  12. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    That's sorta me. Which is why the contradictions are so annoying; _Catherine_ speaks the truth, in my opinion: You could justify almost any contradiction with a clever enough retcon. Daniel Wallace, Jason Fry, and others (and my gratitude and respect goes out to them for this) have been doing this professionally for years.

    But it's pretty obvious when something flies in the face of what "the highest canon" (Leland Chee's words, not mine) and I'm curious if any VIP or anyone has insight on the matter beyond "well it's a natural part of the process" or whatever.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Jan 4, 2013
  13. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Ever since ROTS ended and there wasn't news of a Sequel Trilogy I took the Original 6 movies and the EU as cannon. I wanted a ST and somewhat expected it eventually but didn't actually think it would happen this soon. The retcons and contradictions are so annoying.
  14. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Case and point.
    :rolleyes:
  15. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Taking the card game seriously is just asking for headaches though they don't give a ****. For example the Mission to Hoth
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 4, 2013
  16. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Sometimes the book is even better than the film. Thats certainly the way I look at Revenge of the Sith. Stovers book is far superior to the film.

    Take the scene where in the film where Palps says there no match for a Sith Lord, Obi-wan declares "Sith Lords are our speciality" which I always thought as a stupid thing to say since Dooku kicked there arses last time. In the book it's changed to Anakin mentioning to tell that to the Sith Lord Obi-wan killed on Naboo.

    Whether you read the books and are referencing other stuff or you just watch the films and referencing those, that little change worked on all levels
    Esg likes this.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And we all know how that went... :p
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    "Sith Lords are our speciality."
    "Because you never finish the job?"
  19. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Why did Lucas have to change that? Yes I know Sith have a way of surviving but Maul wasn't even a true Sith Lord. Or did someone help bring him back? I don't follow the Clone Wars series so I don't know the specifics
  20. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    The word "knowledgeable" I think is the key word here. Yoda is not knowledgeable. He can't easily prove a negative from Dagobah or anywhere for that matter. He knows about Order 66 and he probably learned about the purge, however unless he personally verified and used a checklist to determine that every single Jedi is dead, he could not possibly know for sure whether they were all gone. He is trustworthy, but he could not realistically be doing anything but making an assumption. Knowing that Vader and others were hunting down the Jedi, he probably feared and assumed the worst.

    In ROTS Yoda and Obi-Wan change the signal to warn the Jedi not to return to the temple. Why would they not assume at least a few Jedi managed to hide themselves away. How would any hidden Jedi know where to look for Obi-Wan or Yoda?
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  21. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Some of the editing did make the conversations a bit random. "Your New Empire!" "Don't make me kill you" That was so random I can only assume that some other stuff got cut out in between. Again Stover makes it seem much more coherent.

    Yeah he's back in the CW series.
  22. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
  23. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-wan is knowledgeable and not contradicted by other charachters (Vader even semi backs him in RTJ) but it's fair to say he is a compulsive liar.

  24. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Heh

    But really the insistence that Yoda's word is somehow law when he's been wrong on things before is silly
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 5, 2013
  25. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Indeed.