Lit EU vs. Films?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sable_Hart, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    This all sounds fine and reasonable. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen. We'll could get some excuse about "freedom to tell the story we wanted to tell" and massive continuity problems like Luke having a daughter and Leia and Han having 6 kids or something.
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    "This is an adult continuity, for adults, like me."
    GrandMasterKatarn and RC-1991 like this.
  3. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Too many kids=Too many stories to tell. Part of me thinks that is why the Solo kids have been slowly killed off down to 1.
  4. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Both the recent Star Trek and Avengers movies are two examples on how they can create original movies without trampling - or being 'confined' - by prior continuity.

    In the first case, we have an in-universe explanation, which allows any number of changes without negating what came before. In the second case, it draws from the comic book source with its own spin, while the Marvel Universe chugs along on its merry way.

    I'm not saying that's what Star Wars could or should do (well, no, actually I'm a big proponent on taking the Marvel approach and lumping CWAS with the new movies as well), but that it can - and has- been done in other franchises.
  5. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    I would come down solidy on the other side. The universal continuity of Star Wars, warty retcons, shockingly bad individual works, and all, is quite possibly the defining feature of the franchise. Once the prequels came out, any argument anchored in the 'greatness' of the OT started to crumble, since you could no longer isolate via medium or the specific hands of George Lucas. Without universal continuity, without the vastness of a single, overwhelmingly huge EU Star Wars is just another science fiction universe (in fact it's a rather dated and somewhat tired universe hobbled by the nature of the 1970s). The themes of Star Wars are broad and universal, deliberately so, unfortunately that makes them easily re-appropriated and brought into a new work. To use the most blatant example: Mass Effect is Star Wars in the new millenium.

    If you destroy that continuity, kill the single overarching EU presence, then you eliminate what makes Star Wars special - you turn it back into one timeless classic of space opera and an endless stream of highly variable tie-in material. Sure some of that tie-in material could stand on its own (the Thrawn Trilogy, portions of TCW, the Clone Wars micro-series, KOTOR, ROTS, etc.), but a lot of it could not. Huge chunks of the EU are elevated to the point of utility simply because they have the words Star Wars atop them, and a number of jaw-droppingly bad works (New Rebellion!) still have the redeeming feature that any good ideas buried in the dreck can be pulled out, repurposed and utilized to assemble some new, cooler and better, storyline.

    Bottom line, the EU not only has monetary value, it has artistic value, but a great deal of that value is dependent upon the EU existing in something vaguely resembling its current form (Disney can get away with maiming the EU, with lopping of whole limbs, and it would survive, but there are bridge too far points). Destroying the EU simply for the sake of squeezing some marginal benefit in profit out of the new films by increasing narrative 'flexibility' would be a brutally destructive act of artistic sabotage.
    Zorrixor, Zeta1127 and Kyris Cavisek like this.
  6. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    This is apologetics in the extreme. No wonder the franchise has, as you readily admit, such an abundance of shockingly bad contributions-- the authors in question need not fear criticism or reprisal when fans are expected to simply shrug, smile, and ask for more.
  7. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    The point he was trying to make was the intent that it all happened. If you accept the EU you accept the good, the bad, and the Sithy
    Esg likes this.
  8. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Actually the point I was trying to make is that the EU, and specifically the universal continuity of the same, is what makes Star Wars unique. It is what seperates it from other large franchises - everything builds together into one grand galaxy, rather than a menage of alternate universes.

    If you don't find any value in that premise, then why follow Star Wars? Yes the OT is three great classics, potentially the classic space opera story, but nothing else has risen to that level. There's plenty of other great science fiction and space opera to follow, what makes placing the words 'Star Wars' above the title worth our time, energy, and interest? I contend that it the EU - the massive expansiveness and depth and self-reinforcement of such a vast tapesty of creation across so many media and works; the benefits of a shared world.

    There are other shared worlds like this - the more detailed tabletop RPG settings (ex. Forgotten Realms) function similarly, but they simply don't have the place in the popular consciousness of Star Wars does and most, shackled to the demands of a pen-and-paper rpg basis, will never have the fluidity of concept that Star Wars does with its movie foundation.

    As my fandom has progressed through franchise after franchise, I've gone through many, but kept coming back to Star Wars, and it's because of that detail, because of those 100,000+ Wookieepedia articles, and because the story continually advances without discarding what has come before. There's something special about long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Blow apart the EU and you lose that.
    JechtShotMK9, Zorrixor, JackG and 6 others like this.
  9. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    Would it be inappropriate to slip in a joke about JJ Abrams and Star Trek EU right now?
  10. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Go for it
  11. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4

    ....bluff called. I can't think of one.
  12. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    No joke, JJ moved most of the Trek EU to his new timeline (Probably because the interest was there and not in the "Primeline"). So basically the logical thing would happen if we get split timelines then most of the new books would be focused in the new time line, we may get one a year in the old one, and even that would be doubtful.

    The point of the matter however is that Star Wars coined the term Expanded Universe so it isn't going away...
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExpandedUniverse
  13. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    Abrams isn't going to try the same thing twice. It's just bad for business. There's also the fact that SW's fan favorite characters are in the EU. Revan, Thrawn, Jade etc etc
  14. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Valin Horn is my fan fav...

    The only down side is that the EU will kill off good movie characters that haven't died and bring back people who died in the movies... Maul and Fett... LOL

    We may get some minor EU mentions... Who knows... It would be fan service
  15. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    I really hope we don't get 2 separate star wars universes.

    It's called the EU for a reason, not the AU.

    I don't want all those post-ROTJ novels to become AU.
    mes520 likes this.
  16. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I completely agree, I called JJ when I first heard the news. I wish I could find the post. I am calling Jaina and Ben as main characters. Timeline in the EU might need some funky engineering to fix it but nothing we can't over come. I do however predict the return of Chewie
  17. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Return of Chewie is likely in a 25+ ABY break scenario, which is highly doable and at this point is what I expect. It fits the timeframe well for the OT actors and discards only the least cross-media exposed portions of the EU (post 25 ABY does not exist in video games or tv). It's also the point in the timeline where we move out of the 'aftermath of the OT' - which is basically what the New Republic era ultimately was, and into truly new storyline.
  18. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 5
    Star Trek at least has a history of alternate universes (mirror verse) and time travel not to mention at least two groups of Aliens who can do it pretty easily.

    As for Star Wars the EU is going to be obliterated sure I suppose you could look it at as a split universe but its not going to be officially like that I just hope Del Rey loses control of the writing. Well actually to be more precise stuff PT-OT will get tweaked slightly at most stuff like KOTOR not affected at all. Stuff after OT is in serious danger.
    Last edited by Skaddix, Jan 25, 2013
  19. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 5
    Good Points.

    Although pretty sure Leia and Han would have gotten married.
  20. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Hypothetically What do you do if Leia had married Han, they then got a divorce and she marries Lando instead. How would you retcon scenes of Han with Lionel Hutts, his divorce Laywer ranting "how she's not getting the Falcon" It would be pretty hard in JMO
  21. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    The movies are the staple for the star wars universe. It is through here that the EU can grow and flourish. The EU can tell a bunch of stories go on tangents that the movie can't do, but allude to and that makes great business. Star Wars like any franchise has to have an expanded universe to keep the money coming in, and now with Episode 7 things are going to gt good. Why? Well, one the official episode 7 story is out were going to want to know what happened before that leads up to the movie and then were going to want to know what happens after the movie before epsiode 8. Then were going to want to know more about the individual charatcers and factions themselves. This is a win win. They can be told in novels, comic books, certain video games and even animation. This is the power of the movies. Just look at the Clone wars. They were coverd a small bit between both films and look at what we got now.
  22. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Completely agree... And to the theory that we will find out one of the Big 3 is already dead, unlike in the films... The EU can remedy that quickly, just kill them off in the books directly prior. But the big thing we could remember is the probability is that the Vector that the Big 3 left off on at the end of Episode 6 will be picked back up later in the story with Episode 7.
    The Direction that Han and Leia had was to be together, get married, have kids...
    The Direction Luke had was to reestablish the Jedi Order
    The Direction that Chewie had was to stay with Han
    The Direction that the droid had was to stick by Luke and Leia
    The Direction that Lando had was well be Lando
    The Direction of the Alliance was to beat the Empire, if it hadn't already

    Now a vector has direction AND distance (I learned this from Desipicable Me) the question is at what distance from EP 6 do you want to pick up? The bantam era was wonderful at continuing this Vector for all of the characters. And to a point the Early Del Rey did a good job at solidifying the Jedi Order.

    But the biggest problem isn't if Han and Leia get a divorce, it is IF they decide to name their kids what it was in the EU.
    If Luke decides to get married and have a kid.

    These are not present in the Vectors and will need a mention to explain what happened to cause the change of course of the assumed direction.
  23. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 5
    I fully expect changes that are large enough it is not reconcilable. All it means is most of the EU gets kicked into an alt universe.
  24. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Bantha Poodoo you kriffing wish
  25. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    But why would you produce such a scenario? Honestly, is there any reason to do such a thing? How does such a change benefit the new films in any way? Do you think that the staff involved in Episode VII is going to deliberately try to kill off the EU just to prove that they can?

    Besides, the new movies have every reason to preserve as many structures and plot hints from ROTJ as concievably possible in order to increase connectivity across the gulf of time. That's why anything that seemed even remotely likely in ROTJ is all but certain to be carried over into the new films. Han and Leia = married. Luke = head of new Jedi organization. Rebellion = triumphant. Heck, Admiral Ackbar = supreme commander.

    The thing is the EU cruises within that narrative, establishing all sorts of useful background material that can really only help the developers of new movies, until 26 ABY. That's when the Yuuzhan Vong invade and that's when things change. That's where we enter into the point of potential conflict. There is pretty much no way whatsoever to stage the new movies between 25-50 ABY without thrashing that portion of the EU more or less completely, and even going 50+ ABY probably means acknowledging the war, at least in passing, since it had such a massive impact on Both the Rebellion generation and their children.

    The likely outcome of this is to split the EU up - retaining everything within the continuity through 25 ABY, and pushing 26 ABY and onward into an alternate 'Yuuzhan Vong Star Wars' universe. This has numerous benefits - it retains the New Republic era EU in its entirety, which means that once the movies are completed they'll be no need to write out subsequent material about the fall of the Empire that would compete with it (if you want to retain EU sales, you don't split the product agaisnt itself). it also gives the movie writers a more or less free slate. The ending of Vision of the Future, which is basically the endpoint of the New Republic era despite the books that follow chronologically, was incredibly open, matters could go in any direction from there. Del Rey chose massive extragalactic invasion, but the possibilities are largely endless.