Fanclub ~~EUC Jedi~~ The Guardians of Light

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by CPL_Macja, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. Adalia-Durron Former RSA/EUC Empress.

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2003
    star 10
    Yes, they did.....back on target now. Your thoughts on the Darkside, Sith and creatures born from them...
  2. The_Zeltron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2010
    star 6
    I apologize for my absence, everyone, and especially @General Valerian. DRL struck hard this time, and I've only been able to get on to check my messages most days. After this post, I may again be absent for a few days, but I'll try to get on as often as possible I already spoke to my Padawan about his last task, which was very well done.

    @General Valerian, for your next task I would like you to give a brief history of the Great Sith War.
  3. BultarSwan Founder: Grand Rapids, MI FF

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2003
    star 10
    Good to know Zels. Take care. [:D]
  4. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    I actually got another question and this one will probably get much more responses then my previous one. I've been bothered by it for a while now and I've wanted to see how it would play out in the RP itself but...I feel like bringing up early now <.<

    As a member of the Jedi Order, have to ask: why did the Guardians see the reforming of planets with Vong shaped techniques as a bad thing? Enough so that they would split from the Jedi Order. I figured that one point may be due to the hidden, Sith threat but between Cambria's words and some other things that have popped up, the Guardians seem to just simply dislike the use of Vongtech to reform the worlds that have been devastated by the war.

    So the question here would be why?
  5. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    It's the techinques on how they did it that didn't sit well. They pulled a moon out of orbit on an habited planet for starters, changed the atmosphere which caused massive die offs of life altogether. I mean it wasn't pretty on how they went about it. It affected life on the planets all the way to extinction levels...
    Last edited by JediFalcon, Jun 17, 2013
  6. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    Where was this mentioned? I honestly don't know the specifics of the techniques used to restore planets so I'm curious.
  7. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    in the actual series.

    Vector Prime they pulled the moon out of orbit with some kind of live gravitational pump. Chewie died because of it :(

    As they got further in the series it explains they needed a greenhouse atmosphere to grow their weapons. Anything that couldn't stand the heat died.
    Last edited by JediFalcon, Jun 17, 2013
  8. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    Oh you're talking about during the war when the Vong destroyed or corrupted worlds to suit their needs >.> I'm talking about when the Jedi used them to restore worlds like Ossus and Wayland.
  9. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    I don't know, I never got that far in the series to know the answer. I didn't like the way the Vong War went so I stopped reading half way through

    stooping to the Yuuzhan Vong levels to restore planets doesn't make them any better then the ones who destroyed the planets in the first place. To me that would seem like a logical answer.
    Last edited by JediFalcon, Jun 17, 2013
  10. Rebecca_Daniels Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2006
    star 5
    It's not stooping to their level though - its using a technology to restore damaged worlds, heal them in a way. I don't know much about it either and as I'm in Rrrrrrroma I don't have time to look it up, but I figure one of two things happened: Vongforming was used to restore completely obliterated worlds, which I see as bring good OR they used Vongforming to restore worlds to sustain humanoids at the expense of anything that remained living there, which would definitely be morally grey area.

    There's my two cents (two Euro cents, at that) and let it be known that with my history in the NJOFC I'm usually the last to defend Vong and Vongtech. I can just understand its usefulness post-war.
  11. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Could it have anything to do with the Yuuzhan Vong's use of 'shaped' lifeforms versus the GoL's respect for life in any form? Seems to me that the Yuuzhan Vong attitude to other life is somewhat similar to the Sith attitude to the Force - that is, as a useful tool.
  12. Bardan_Jusik Mand'alor - Manager of the EUC, SWC and Anthology

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2009
    star 10

    This is my uninformed guess as obviously those who are the keepers of the GoL's history will know better. But I thought I had seen somewhere (perhaps the GoL wiki) that the Guardians "had a bad feeling" about the Ossus Project and the reclamation of worlds using Vong techniques. Not that they necessarily foresaw the Sith-Imperial War (though they may have) just that they had a feeling that things wouldn't turn out well for the Jedi if the project was continued. So they split off to protect the traditions of the Jedi as by leaving they avoided the Third Jedi Purge. I could be way off base though.

    OK, just looked at the wiki at it states that the GoL just felt that using Vongforming was against the will of the Force. Though it does state that they knew that if they didn't break off that the Jedi would also soon cease to exist.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Bardan_Jusik, Jun 17, 2013
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  13. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5

    To be fair, I sometimes wonder how I managed to get through some of the EU considering some of the nonsense that went on :p

    As far as I can tell, Vongforming is like any piece of technology or mystical power like the Force: it can be used for the most heinous of crimes or the greatest of good. During the Vong War, 90% of the time you saw the worst of it in the shape of voxyn, surge-coral, the Embrace of Pain, Slayers, and the numerous, deadly spores that were used as biological weapons. But even when the Yuuzhan Vong sought to kill everyone in the galaxy, there had yet been some useful techniques that seemed useful and even good. The planet Duro, for example, when it had been retaken from the Vong, had centuries of its pollution cleaned up within two years with the Vong shaping techniques; turning its once uninhabitable surface back into a lush, forested planet as it was before the Clone War.

    It was that instance of Vongforming that the Jedi sought to use to restore a hundred of possibly hundreds of worlds that had been ravaged and destroyed by the Vong. On Ossus and Wayland (before its sabotage), there had been immense success as each world became a lush, habital one that could support life for millions of sentient beings. I cannot, with 100% certainty, say what shaping methods were used though. However, I doubt that there were any techniques that were used to completely erase whatever remnants of life that was left in order to make room for new life. Besides, there had only been two worlds that had been restored: Ossus and Wayland and the former was a barren wasteland while the latter could be best described as a death world as it had been the center of Vong biological weapons that had been spawned there.

    Yeah I thought I remember reading about something like that :p It was one of the things I had thought long and hard about and here be my rebuttal:

    Thinking that using shaping techniques as being against the Will of the Force isn't a - completely 100% my opinion mind you - very sound argument. For the most obvious reason, the Vong were completely and utterly stripped from the Force. All that destruction that they had caused - the trillions of beings that they had slain, the hundreds of worlds they destroyed - cannot be confidently said to be with the "Will of the Force" when the ones responsible were stripped from it. So its very difficult to make any argument against using those same techniques in reverse to restore worlds especially with what it means for the galaxy as a whole.

    On the logical side, Vongforming ravaged worlds had a mountain of advantages that totally eclipsed any disadvantages. Again, the Vong destroyed numerous worlds and a lot of species - such as the Ithorians - found themselves without a homeworld and were forced to resettle on a new one. Coupled with these resettlements, there was a lack of resources due to the loss of so many planets so hunger became a galactic problem as well as fights and wars that were conducted to grab what resources you could get. Though trillions of sentient beings were killed in the Vong War, there were still many more that were scavenging about for supplies to rebuild and resettle. With all this destruction that had occurred, it was virtually impossible for the New Republic/Galactic Alliance or any faction to rebuild to how they once were before the Vong War.

    Vongforming would solve everything. Duro had been restored and the Duros were able to set foot and live upon its surface (something they haven't done in centuries) again so what if the same could be done for the others? Ossus had become a barren wasteland due to the workings of the Sith millenniums ago but, being the first test world for the shapers, became a lush, green world once again. Wayland, a death world that had spawned numerous Vong weapons from amphistaffs to Chom-Vrones which had destroyed most of the planet's mantle, became a paradise before the Sith sabotage. With such degrees of success, any world can be restored to its previous luster including Ithor. Everyone would get their homeworld back, they would regain resources, and the Vong (still viewed as monsters with the Bothans still technically in an effort to conduct genocide upon them) would be able rebuild ties with the galaxy and its denizens as a whole

    With Vongforming, you can settle the chaos and suffering that had been left behind by the war and rebuild a better future.
    Last edited by Sarge221, Jun 17, 2013
  14. CPL_Macja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2008
    star 5
    Quick and dirty answer.... the majority of forming GoL members had connections to the Galactic Defenders. The GD had run ins with so-called reformed Vong, but they sided with Sith forces. Therefore it was difficult for these members to agree to the councils decision to use vong tech. They decided that instead of causing another schism in the Jedi Order they would leave Alliance space and form a kind of outpost in case their worst fears came true and the Vongforming was a trap.

    Sent from a Galaxy far away via R2-N6
  15. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Is it known (or possible) that these were actually unreformed Vong, masquerading as the reformed type? Vong seem to have been actively probing Chiss Space some time before Outbound Flight launched; and are known to have been in or near Ssi Ruuk space during the Force Heretic trilogy. As little as one Worldship going 'under the radar' would have been all that was required.
    Adalia-Durron likes this.
  16. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    Ah I see :p Though I wonder, considering the results that occurred before the Sith sabotage, if they would agree to the idea of Vongforming being a benefit if the Sith were no longer a threat that could sabotage any future projects. Considering the use of the virus spores created and used by Vun Isen that poisoned Dac and Da Soocha, the use of Vongtech could cure those two worlds as well and allow the Mon Calamari to recover.
  17. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    It's a question of trust, IMHO. From what I've read 'in-game', the one member of the GOL that's mentioned it doesn't seem to accept that Sith sabotage actually occurred!

    Lightsaber Question: With all the mass in the hilt (the blade being massless, or virtually so), where does the momentum come from for 'Power Attacks'?
  18. Adalia-Durron Former RSA/EUC Empress.

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2003
    star 10
    Deep question, and as its late, I'm not getting my Jedi Path out to research it! Sorry Tim.
  19. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    Might actually do some research in the future but, right now, this is what I came up with after mulling the question over in my mind to better allow me to get through work :p

    Considering that the lightsaber blade is weightless while the hilt itself would probably weigh about....two pounds or more depending on the materials used in its creation, I think most if not all of the momentum that a Jedi builds up during combat is purely from the physical energy that can be produced by their trained bodies and muscles (with a little help from the Force of course). Considering that they would obtain little momentum by just swinging their energy sword when compared to a solid, metal one, a Jedi - I would think - needs to make it up with their own natural strength and what momentum they can build up from their body's movements.

    If true, then this is really the biggest factor in the inherent style of lightsaber techniques and combat forms and why there are so many forms that, despite the same weapon being used, are vastly different. While a lightsaber is light and can be thrusted and parried with like a rapier, it has the durability and length that allows it to be swung like a broadsword if needed. This makes it a very versatile weapon and the biggest factor on what kind of lightsaber form a Jedi inevitably chooses is how they can comfortably move their bodies in order to obtain maximum effectiveness. Hence why Jedi tend to be the most agile and speedy of fighters when they put their blades to work.

    For example, more maneuverable forms like Ataru and Juyo focus purely on movement and how well a Jedi can launch themselves at an opponent with dizzying, twisting acrobatic stunts. These movements would easily allow such Jedi to not only build up but maintain momentum as they spin and fly into their opponents with their lightsabers being carried by their movements. Of course, this constant movement of your body and muscles, while effective, would tire you out depending on your stamina.

    Makashi relies on the movements that you would typically employ in fencing and early rapier duels. That is, with precise and efficient movements of the muscles in your arm to deliver a piercing jab or fluid parry while your footwork provides you with a stable platform to put a bit of leverage behind your attacks and parries. There is little momentum build-up when it comes to Makashi: like using an actual rapier, you position the blade to where you want to deliver your jab and with a sudden burst of muscle activity and movement, your arm suddenly extends to have the tip of your blade deliver a scorching touch to your opponent's flesh. No momentum, just the use of your own muscles. If not a rapier then think of a boxer: no pulling back of the shoulder or the arm to build up momentum for a powerful attack (and thus giving away to your opponent what you're about to do), just a sudden, quick jab to the face.

    Soresu and Djem So are two lightsaber forms that best offer a picture of how a Jedi would use their own muscles to achieve differing results. For Djem So users, its all about blocking and then counterattacking with pure, overwhelming power. When counterattacking, a Djem So user not only uses his own strength but the force of the enemy's blow he just blocked or parried to turn the tables. It lacks the mobility of forms like Ataru and Makashi but that's due to the user focusing all their strength and power to deliver wide, sweeping attacks to beat at their opponent while their footing pushes them to press forward, pushing their weight behind the strength of their swings to overwhelm an opponent. In contrast, Soresu is all about keeping your blade and body closed up but yet maintaining a constant movement of parries and dodges to not only protect yourself but to build up momentum for the time when your opponent slips up and you can suddenly turn the tables with an attack that may prove to be similar to the likes of an attack by a Makashi user to quickly and efficiently disable them.

    Again, this is my own theory and I may do a bit of research when I awaken to see how much credit this explanation may possess but this, at the very least, is a rough idea on how Jedi go about with providing themselves with momentum that a weightless weapon would lack :-B
    Last edited by Sarge221, Jun 18, 2013
  20. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    You did indeed think about it, Sarge, and deeply too! :)

    IMHO, the mass in the hilt only really comes into the equation with thrusting attacks (primarily in Makashi but also present in some Ataru moves) when the hilt, blade and target area are all in line.

    Could the gyroscopic effects we've been told are associated with an activated Lightsaber be a factor?
  21. Sarge221 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2006
    star 5
    Doh, I actually did think of the gyroscopic effect but forgot to mention it :oops:The gyroscopic effect does certainly add resistance that the lightsaber lacks due to its weightless plasma blade and, with training and the Force, I suppose it could also be used for momentum once a Jedi properly knows how to compensate for it and even use the effect to their advantage to build strong, powerful attacks. However, for obvious reasons, I have no experience with how such a setup would feel in my own hands so, again, I'm down to a bunch of theory work. For Ataru and Juyo, I think much of the power and momentum a Jedi would achieve is still primarily focused on the spinning, acrobatic movements of their forms and the power produced by their muscles. Djem So, Soresu, and Makashi, as you mentioned, could rely more on the gyroscopic effect to add just a bit more momentum and power behind their thrusts, parries, and swings but, again, this is just guess work and no matter how you look at it I'm trying to use actual science and physics in order to try to explain fictional science and physics.

    Thus, nothing should be considered as fact or, more specifically, "realistic" :p Unless of course we one day unlock that key piece of technology that allows us to one day see energy swords in our time.
  22. Pearlsaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2013
    star 4
    Evening GoL:D

    I'll be leaving tomorrow morning for my wedding week. :p

    I'll have limited access to the internet so sorry if it seems like I've dropped off the planet for the next few weeks. :)
  23. Bardan_Jusik Mand'alor - Manager of the EUC, SWC and Anthology

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2009
    star 10
    What? Some Jedi you are. Don't you know that the JC Forums in general, and the GoL in particular, are far more important than getting married?

    :p

    [IMG]
  24. Pearlsaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2013
    star 4
    [face_laugh]

    You must have a wonderful marriage, Bards. :p
    Bardan_Jusik likes this.
  25. JacensGirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 4
    I keep getting distracted by RL work... sowwyyy :(

    Early congrats, Pearl!! :)
    Pearlsaber likes this.
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