EUC Thread Closures

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sreya, Sep 12, 2002.

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  1. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    I've been told that this is the place to go for talking about administrative decisions, etc. Bear with me, I've never been involved with a problem like this on the Jedi Council forums.

    I am an active member of the Mara Jade Hater Club in the EU Community board. This particular thread has formed an amazingly tight community, and provided us a place in which we can rant about Mara safely away from those who would flame us for making any comment indicating our dislike of the character. Well, we'd still get the occasional troll, but as it was the Mara Jade Hater club, they were blatantly off-topic, and were promptly asked to come on-topic or leave.

    This week, we have been told by DarthAttorney that our thread will be locked, and we are to become a part of the Haters Community thread, which is an extremely general discussion thread.

    Please understand that the MJHC has a LOT of discussion going on. We currently have over 2100 posts, and are fast approaching 2200. This is mostly since July. I really don't think we have a single page of posts that is entirely off-topic, which, from what I've seen, is fairly unusual for the EUC. And a lot of EUC members really don't like what we have to say about Mara.

    I am extremely concerned about this decision to meld the Mara Jade Hater Club into the general Haters Community. Based on my past experience with the subject matter and with the posters in the EUC, I cannot see this being a smooth transition. There are going to be flames, and negative remarks thrown back and forth. As soon as a "Mara is an awful person" type comment goes up, even if we have given an entire essay of reasons to feel this way pages back, we're going to see "Why do you hate Mara! She's awesome! You have to give a good reason to hate Mara!" from someone who has come into the thread to, say, post about their hatred of Callista. But because this would no longer be a thread for just Mara haters, this kind of posting would not be something that can easily be countered.

    This means a LOT more work for the mods on the forum.

    I'm also thinking about the sheer volume of posts the MJHC has on a daily basis... I imagine that we're probably going to hear complaints that "everybody in the Haters Community hates Mara!" because we're very likely to outnumber the rest of the posts. In the time that it took for the Haters Community to reach 100 posts, the Mara Jade Haters Club added well over 1000. That's quite a ratio. And that's not fair to the other posters in the thread. They should not be lumped in with a group they disagree with.

    The EU Community board was created for various clubs and such, am I right? The MJHC is a very cohesive and loyal club. We have been very careful to NOT post in the Mara Jade Fan Club or elsewhere that Mara fans post, because we don't want to engage in flame wars. All we want is a safe haven in the EUC, in which we can vent our frustrations, and then move on to other discussions.

    This also applies to many other threads that are being closed in the EUC, not just the Mara Jade thread. There has been a move to condense a lot of groups that, to be honest, are pretty diverse, and are likely to clash. I can understand watching for redundancy. But diversification is not the same as redundancy.

    I strongly urge all of the Mods and Admins involved in this process to please think carefully about this decision, and to involve the EUC members. Right now many are feeling betrayed, and I'm seeing feelings hurt, both on the part of members and mods. If this continues, I don't think the next month is going to be very comfortable for anyone, and that is the last thing that should happen to a Community board. The last thing I want to see is a flame war erupting on the boards. I've seen too many of them to want to be caught in the middle of one.

    Sreya
  2. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    //sigh...

    I have explained my position on this about 12 times today.

    All Haters threads in EUC are redundant.

    This is the Official Haters Thread MkII, a thread which is a long-establhished institution in EUC since the inception of the forum. It is specifically designed to cater for people who want to discsuss the things they dislkie about the EU.

    That is where "hate" posts should go. I've given you guys a more than fair warning about the impending closure. A week isn't an instant lock, you've got plenty of time to let your members know about the move. I'm not denying your right to "hate", just redirecting it. If people are overly hostile and break the TOS by flaming or disrespecting your opinions and beliefs, PM a mod like everyone else.

    :)
  3. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    I still don't see why threads have to be condensed. The same thing was done a while back with the 3 Defense Force threads for the OT. What space or work does it save to eliminate 2 threads? Why is talking about why you love ESB a repetition of talking about why you love ANH? Why is discussing your hatred for the Solo kids the repetition of discussing a dislike for Mon Mothma?

    Do we have to start thinking about combining all movie threads into one big Movie Appreciation thread?

    I understand the explaination, so I'm not asking anyone to go over it again, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.


    EDIT: Added analogy.
  4. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    "All Haters threads in EUC are redundant. "

    Why?

    UKS
  5. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    I have explained my position on this about 12 times today.


    DA-

    With all due respect, I don't think anyone is misunderstanding your position, they just sincerely disagree with it.

    I've had numerous PM's with DarthAttorney about this, and he seems rock-solid in his opinion on the matter. I, however, vehemently disagree with his position on this (Not that it really matters).

    Each individual thread forms their own unique identity, and the posters within it form their own individual community, within the greater arc of the EUC. When you try to mash all these threads together into one giant conglomerate, especially in the case of the Haters Community, you are doing nothing but creating a time bomb waiting to happen. In my experience, people within Haters Communities are extremely vehement in their feelings and thoughts, and when you lump them all together, fireworks are going to ensue. The NJO Critics Club and the Mara Jade Haters Club, for example, may seriously disagree. Why even create a situation where people will be possibly flamed and banned?

    Aside from that, on the boards, the Community forum is where many EUers go to create and maintain friendships. Look at the EUDF for example. Within the EUC, many EUDFers do not post in any other threads, because they have made friends with people who share the same views as them. Lumping the haters together is far too broad of a topic to be discussed in one thread. I honestly don't think the EUC has enough clutter to warrant this sort of action, and am seriously disappointed that this is happening. Giving a one week warning is not justification for the removal of some very important community threads.

    JMA
  6. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    (Since I ran out of time to edit, I need to announce that my keyboard sucks and the r key sticks. That is all.)
  7. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    I support DA in this, mostly because I just really dislike the idea of Hater threads.
  8. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Gandolf-

    I understand that sentiment, but merely because a moderator doesn't like the idea doesn't mean that they aren't worthy to be open. Obviously a great deal of people have no problem whatsoever with hater threads. *shrug* I just think it's wrong to try to lump everything together, but I kind of get the feeling that any arguments are falling on deaf ears.

    JMA
  9. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    It strikes me that a lot of the "Hater" threads in the EU forums aren't really that nasty about EU. (well, in a friendly, mocking way).

    Compare that to the "Basher" threads in the PT forums and you can see how vitriolic people can get!

    UKS
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    It strikes me that a lot of the "Hater" threads in the EU forums aren't really that nasty about EU.

    You haven'y visited some of those threads. [face_plain]

    Some of them don't just bash the EU, but also the fans of the thing they hate.
  11. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Okay. I don't often speak up on your boards though I do "surf" them so I wanted to throw my .2 cents in.

    I guess I'd like to understand the need to lump all "haters" together. If you do this, then I want to see all the "likers" be lumped into the same thread. I want to see the Mara Jade, Kyp, and all the other "fan club" threads be lumped together.

    If all hater threads are redundant, then all the threads that say "I like this" are redundant.

    Does anyone else see the stupidity with that argument?

    Sorry, DA. It's not a flame against you. You may have explained yourself 12 times or 100. But if you are going to explain then you probably should explain things fully. If you did, then I personally think this is an unwise desicion and you should just leave the thread alone.
  12. Dark Jedi Tam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2000
    star 4
    How about we just get rid of EU community all together? That would solve *all* the redundancy wouldn't it?

    I've PMed DA and Gandolf already, and I'm sure they've gotten enough PMs concerning this its enough to make them rip their hair out.

    The only thing I'm concerned about is the increase of flaming and as a result of all haters being in one area. This could create tension between members and even cause hatred among *each other*. Something we seriously don't need.
  13. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    Seems that the real issue here isn't redundancy, but whether or not these "hater" sort of threads should be allowed.

    If you let these types of threads in the forum, then I can't see how a particular characters "hate" thread is redundant as compared to a hate thread of another character. Like LordGoldenArrow said, by that same token, there should only be one thread where you can post about liking a particular character, and not the various character fanbase threads in existence currently.

    My opinion would be to allow hate threads, or do away with them all completely.
  14. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    The MJHC certainly has my support. Not only as a fellow Hater, but also because we have just as much right to hate her - or any other character, for that matter - as everyone else has to gush about her. Even though I will respect whatever decision that comes down from the mods, it still doesnt make it right, and it is definitely a double standard.
  15. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    *claps for Kevin*

    Indeed, DVader. :)

    JMA
  16. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Are there "I hate the EU" threads too in the EU Haters threads?

    This is all too confusing. Bringing order to chaos is not a job for the weak hearted.
  17. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    Bringing order to chaos is not a job for the weak hearted.

    That is what D_A is attempting to do.
  18. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    1) I don't see how shutting down all hater threads will improve the quality of the forum. I fail to see how that works, when all the bars and social threads which talk about nonsense are allowed to stay open. The Haters Clubs at least has something to do with the EU.

    2) Not only is it not fair for Mara Jade Haters, but it's not fair for Mara fans. Mara Jade Haters will post more than any other haters in the Hater's Community most likely, and that means Mara Jade fans who come in the thread to hate Callista or whoever will have to wade past post after post of hating Mara Jade. I sure wouldn't like to do that with my favorite character, regardless of whether I posted my dislike or not.

    If we move to the Hater's Community, there will be soooo many posts of people going "Not meaning to be rude, but why do you hate Mara?" and when we post something like Mara was a murderer, someone else will be like "Wrong. *posts some lame proof like she was brainwashed* insisting that they're not arguing, just "correcting" and that they have every right to be there because they're a hater too.

    It is a double standard to condense all hating threads together when all fan character threads aren't condensed. Everyone has a right to an opinion, be it hating or liking.

    I thought the whole reason for the EU Community was that so these type of community threads with a singular discussion in mind could be created. The Literature forum is where people who want to engage in serious debate with differing opinions go.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    "All Haters threads in EUC are redundant. "

    Why?



    Because that's the reason we created the the HC. The MJHC is nothing new. Really. I created it back in lit. And Barns and I had the idea of starting the HC so there wasn't a bunch of haters' threads all over the place. Which was starting to become a trend in lit. I support DA and Gandolf on this. Mainly because I even told these various clubs to relocate to the HC before.
  20. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Like many others. I'm also concerned about flame wars breaking out. Our thread, despite being clearly labeled a Hater thread, has had quite a few instances of trolls, the most recent a particularly nasty one last night. DA knows this.

    Were we merged into one thread, it would get worse. Much worse.

    And why is having only one hater thread in a forum sorrounded by fan clubs a good thing? The movie forums have quite a few basher threads, and they're still open. Why weren't they consolidated? I would agree with this decision if the standard was applied to every board in the JC.

    It's not, therefore, I strongly disagree.

    For the most part, we stay away from people who like Mara Jade. We follow the TOS. We try not to flame. We stick to the topic, for 88 pages straight (as of right now). And by being pretty responsible posters, we and other hater threads get this?

    It doesn't seem fair. And to those who have read my argument before, I have to say it again: It smells a bit of censorship, if not a double standard.

    I don't want to believe that, I know DA wants the best for the forum, but I can't help feeling like that right now. [face_plain]
  21. Dark Jedi Tam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2000
    star 4
    Bringing order to chaos is not a job for the weak hearted.

    That is what D_A is attempting to do.


    Lumping a bunch of people who have different opinions and hates on the EU will not bring order to the chaos. I've stated this once before:

    When members are pushed into single threads containing many drastically different opinions, you are feeding that chaos. The results your going to see will be like a bunch of Fundementalist Christians preaching on a message board for Gays and Lesbians. How can any good come out of that?

    Back on JC's issue, after a point, those members that disagree with each other, will hate each other. Having seperate Hate groups are good in that respect that the hate is shared between select individuals. No one is being shown things they don't want to read or see because they can avoid those Hate groups. You cannot avoid reading something you dislike if you condense all Hate groups into one.

    Make any sense? ?[face_plain]
  22. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Makes a great deal of sense. :)

    Along with the flame wars, hatred will develop between posters. Sad as the thought is, it'll happen. I guarantee that.

    Creating resentment isn't a good thing.
  23. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    The HC was created for collective hate! Doesn't anyone listen? Are you all blind? Geez the merger of all of the haters threads isn't a new thing and that's what the HC was intended to do. That is why DA is shutting down the hater threads. Because back in the first days of the EUC we moved the HC there where the rules would stay the same. The HC is a collective hate, we're there for nitpicks and gripes about the EU.


    Read the original haters' community statement. HC it's reposted clear as day, and as cleanly as when it was written.
  24. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    Look, your saying what DID happen.

    They are saying what SHOULD happen.

    They SHOULD be allowed more then one "Hater" thread, IMO. You saying it was decided that that shouldn't be allowed, that there should be only one, and that all haters should share it, is not the point.

    That was PREVIOUS policy, and it looks like these guys are chasing a change.

    UKS
  25. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    What did happen. And what is still in effect. Actually it is the point because that's the policy Gandolf and DA are implementing.


    The idea that the merger of the hater groups to the HC will cause the members to hate each other is complete crap! That policy has stood since the EUC was created and there haven't been any flame wars since.
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