EUC Thread Closures

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sreya, Sep 12, 2002.

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  1. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    If condensing hate is the rule of the land now, think it could apply to the movie forums as well? We could just lock up all the movie and GL haters in exactly one place per forum? If the general idea is that hating is redundant if it's in more than one thread, maybe we can overhaul the whole JC!

    At any rate, I agree with epic. This isn't an issue of redundancy, otherwise there should only be a handful of threads in EUC that each deal with all the characters in the books. The question is whether the whole hating vibe, so to speak, is allowed. That's a more interesting question to me, and personally, would be far more interesting if its application were not limited to EUC. ;)
  2. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Just because something's always been done a particular way does not mean that it is correct or should continue that way.
    My question still stands...why are you (and the you is the mods of the board) forcing a group of people to conform to a single thread? There are dozens of fan club threads for different characters. Why are you singling out the people who don't like a particular character?

    Why is there a HC in the first place? I read the statement about what the HC is. And I like the idea. If people want to discuss what they dislike about the EU that's a great place to do so. I've looked into the thread several times.
    However, these people seem to want to discuss just one character. Fine. Let them. If you don't you have effectivly created a double standard.

    That aside, this thread is turning into a "do what I say or else" type thing...when all the starter wanted was discussion. You need to be willing to DISCUSS this. You can't discuss this by saying it will be done this way and no other. Try arguing with reason instead of just forcing your opinions on others.


    EDIT: Spelling...I'm terrible at it

  3. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I do not see why there is any need to condense the various haters' threads into one. There are half a dozen fan clubs for different characters--why not condense them into one thread?

    Many different "basher" threads are allowed to exist in the movie forums. Yes, there is a "Bashers Sanctuary" in the "Phantom Menace" forum, but many other threads are started which criticize different aspects of the movies, not to mention a few threads which criticize Lucas personally. This is true, though to a lesser extent, in the AOTC forums. There isn't a Bashers Sanctuary, but there are plenty of threads started or dominated by bashers.

    Gandolf said he is disturbed by the fact that the haters communities exist. Well, bashers/haters communities and threads are allowed to exist in the movie forums. I don't see why it should be different in the EU forums.
  4. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    That aside, this thread is turning into a "do what I say or else" type thing...when all the starter wanted was discussion. You need to be willing to DISCUSS this. You can't discuss this by saying it will be done this way and no other. Try arguing with reason instead of just forcing your opinions on others


    It's not forcing an opinion if there's a concensus of it. Those who have been in the EUC longer will more than likely side with the mods on this issue, IMO at least.


    Why is there a HC in the first place? I read the statement about what the HC is. And I like the idea. If people want to discuss what they dislike about the EU that's a great place to do so. I've looked into the thread several times.
    However, these people seem to want to discuss just one character. Fine. Let them. If you don't you have effectivly created a double standard.


    The HC was formed in order to combine all those who have nitpicks and hate. INCLUDING characters. Which by your reasoning is a double standard if they're allowed to stay open.
  5. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    It's quite true that I haven't been at the JC, much less the EUC as long as others. I readily admit that.
    But there are some who have been who agree with our opposition to this measure.

    I think we really need seperate threads. I may seem redundant, but why are there more fan clubs still cropping up, and not being merged?

    Hater Threads are a minority in the EUC. We deserve to have a few of them, not one. Why can't this continue?
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    It's quite true that I haven't been at the JC, much less the EUC as long as others. I readily admit that.
    But there are some who have been who agree with our opposition to this measure.


    Didn't mean to rub that in your face. Just so ya know.

    I think we really need seperate threads. I may seem redundant, but why are there more fan clubs still cropping up, and not being merged?

    There would be no fan club thread. Too many people disagree there. The HC is where mostly everyone agrees and discusses their hate of a particular EU topic.

    Hater Threads are a minority in the EUC. We deserve to have a few of them, not one. Why can't this continue?

    Again, that would be a double standard against the HC of all places.
  7. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
  8. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
  9. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    "those who have been in the EUC longer..."

    It seems to me that everyone's opinion should matter; including the new people or those looking to join. It shouldn't matter how long a member a person has been to voice an opinion. That's how the community grows and gets fresh ideas.

    And certainly if a mod is forcing a group of posters to conform then there is not a concensus with them.

    New people have ideas and those ideas should be taken seriously. If they want to enjoy their EUC life by having a seperate thread, why can't they?

    To me this looks like an issue of a particular thread bucking the system and the people who have been around don't like it and therefore are going to quash it. Tell me I'm wrong...but do so with some reason to things. Explain to me why the MJHC cannot have their own thread in the EUC? Explain why they have to be lumped in with the "I hate the EU" thread.

    Honestly, I don't think Sreya's request for discussion on the matter was an unreasonable request. The only discussion I've heard is the comment "that's the way it has always been done". Can the mods or anyone offer a better explanation?

    Oh and FID I think you misunderstood me. Or else I don't understand your comment. My only point is this:
    You (since you created the thread) have a place to combine all those "who have nitpicks and hate." That's great. I applaud that. However, these people want a thread where they can complain about 1 specific thing. Why can they not have one?
    Just as an example...if you look on the EU board...one can find the NJO Critics Club (hater club?), the Jacen Solo Fan Club (lover club), MCHC (hater), Han and Leia's Club , Jedi Kyp, Twins Suns Squa, Jag Fel, and much much more. Again, I ask you why can these people not have their own club? If you lump them into one group, why are the mods not making a "WE LOVE THE EU Thread" and then lumping all the other "fan clubs" into the same thread?
  10. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Just polite disagreement, that's all.
    I'm starting to sound like a broken record if I state my case again. [face_plain]
  11. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    There would be no fan club thread. Too many people disagree there. The HC is where mostly everyone agrees and discusses their hate of a particular EU topic.

    The Mara Jade Haters Club is where mostly everyone agrees and discusses their hate of a particular EU topic: in this case, Mara Jade. People who disagree about other things can put that aside and unite in their common dislike for Mara Jade.

    The Haters Community is a general place where not everyone agrees about a specific topic.

    Again, I do not see why bashers are allowed to have many different threads in the movie forums, but "haters" clubs should all be condensed into one thread.

    Also, the EU authors and Del Rey pays attention to what goes on in the forums. A Mara Jade Haters Club, with 88 pages and growing, will let them know that Mara is not as universally loved as they might have thought. That maybe people are sick of reading about how "wonderful" she is, and want to read about other characters.
  12. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    Shelley: I said I dislike the idea of hater threads. Not that I?m disturbed that they exist. There?s a line there.

    Again, I do not see why bashers are allowed to have many different threads in the movie forums, but "haters" clubs should all be condensed into one thread.

    Take that up with the movie moderators. We want to do things in EUC in what we perceive to be a better way.


    I don?t mind debate. That?s why I originally came to and stayed on these boards. You can debate all you want about just about anything, and as long as it remains PG and doesn?t descend into flaming, it?s all good in my opinion. You can hold any position, just as long as you don?t do anything rude or stupid. I dislike pure gushing as much as I dislike pure venting, but at least gushing is rarely provocative. Some one is far more likely to insult an author or a fan or to use profanity while talking about something they dislike.

    I don?t mind fan clubs, within reason. I think that the Jacen Solo fan club is generally a fairly good example of what a fan club should be on these boards. We honestly discuss Jacen Solo, and while we all like him, we don?t always disagree. Just look at the Traitor debates to see the differing opinions we had and have. Some of us think he?s made the right choice, while others disagree quite forcefully. There are acknowledgements that the character has faults, and we discuss those right along with his strengths. We discuss the characters philosophy. We discuss where he is going in the NJO. Sometimes we get off topic for a while and talk about the fantasy genre in general.

    ?Hater? threads are environments where discussion is virtually impossible. Because of the nature of the thread, anyone posting in the thread that isn?t trolling is one who hates a given character. Whereas people who like something have a lot that they can discuss, discussion of negatives tends to quickly dissolve into ?I agree! It?s awful!? Once they reach that point, they don?t really have far to go. What can you discuss when you all agree on something? All that?s left is blind venting, which is as silly as blind gushing. Negative discussion threads are one thing, pure bashing another in my mind.

    I suppose that in the end, another big part of my problem with hater threads is that I don?t even understand the rational. Why obsess about something you hate? I can see criticizing something you dislike honestly, as through criticism there is hope for improvement. But spending 2000+ posts on a subject you despise? What is the point? That seems to me to be like drinking a few liters of Buckley?s to prove that it doesn?t taste good.
  13. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Gandolf,

    I personally do not like the idea of a thread being devoted to negativity. However, there is people that like it obviously. Personal feelings shouldn't coming into play on this, though. At least not like and dislike. The question is, is it fair to the MJHC posters to force them to join a specific thread?

    The main question I have is why do you have to force unfair rules upon them? If they are behaving by the TOS, (which no one said they aren't) then why do they have to be forced to close their thread? Do they not have as much right as the people who want to have a discussion about the merritts and flaws of the Solo son? Why is a MOD stepping in to close the thread? Where is it in the TOS or the rules of the Jedi Council Forums that you cannot have this thread? If these people are not breaking any rules than why are they being forced to stop enjoying whatever they choose to enjoy?

  14. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    It seems to me that everyone's opinion should matter; including the new people or those looking to join. It shouldn't matter how long a member a person has been to voice an opinion. That's how the community grows and gets fresh ideas.

    And certainly if a mod is forcing a group of posters to conform then there is not a concensus with them.


    You're calling a hater club that's ALREADY been created before a 'fresh' idea? And you took my quote out of context. If there's one thing I hate more, it's being misquoted to to further someone's cause. Now you either admit to your error or I'm not going to be very happy with your false 'quote'.

    New people have ideas and those ideas should be taken seriously. If they want to enjoy their EUC life by having a seperate thread, why can't they?

    Because it's a waste of space on the server? That could be it.

    To me this looks like an issue of a particular thread bucking the system and the people who have been around don't like it and therefore are going to quash it. Tell me I'm wrong...but do so with some reason to things. Explain to me why the MJHC cannot have their own thread in the EUC? Explain why they have to be lumped in with the "I hate the EU" thread.


    That's stupid, you're suggesting there's a conspiracy between the older members of the EUC and the newer folks. Trust me, there is not. And it seems to me this thread is only for the MJHC. Kinda one-sided don't ya think? The HC is not the "I hate EU" thread. Get your facts straight.

    Honestly, I don't think Sreya's request for discussion on the matter was an unreasonable request. The only discussion I've heard is the comment "that's the way it has always been done". Can the mods or anyone offer a better explanation?

    Depends who you're asking. If you like the way things have been done, chances are you're not going to like changing that.

    Oh and FID I think you misunderstood me. Or else I don't understand your comment. My only point is this:
    You (since you created the thread) have a place to combine all those "who have nitpicks and hate." That's great. I applaud that. However, these people want a thread where they can complain about 1 specific thing. Why can they not have one?
    Just as an example...if you look on the EU board...one can find the NJO Critics Club (hater club?), the Jacen Solo Fan Club (lover club), MCHC (hater), Han and Leia's Club , Jedi Kyp, Twins Suns Squa, Jag Fel, and much much more. Again, I ask you why can these people not have their own club? If you lump them into one group, why are the mods not making a "WE LOVE THE EU Thread" and then lumping all the other "fan clubs" into the same thread?


    Gandolf answered the fan club question. I haven't started a fan club. I don't plan to be a part of a fan club.

    The 'we' I'm referring to is Barnsthefatjedi and myself. We started a haters' community. Actually. He proposed it to me after I started the Mara Jade Hater Club in the literature forum.


    I'm also thinking about the sheer volume of posts the MJHC has on a daily basis... I imagine that we're probably going to hear complaints that "everybody in the Haters Community hates Mara!" because we're very likely to outnumber the rest of the posts. In the time that it took for the Haters Community to reach 100 posts, the Mara Jade Haters Club added well over 1000. That's quite a ratio. And that's not fair to the other posters in the thread. They should not be lumped in with a group they disagree with


    Jumping to conclusions, she is. First thing's first. Most of the people in the HC already hate Mara Jade, so that won't be anything new. We also hate, Callista, Bria, and any other bad chick that Luke has met. Trust me. The HC will not conflict with your views.
  15. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Gandolf, I understand your dislike of negative threads, I really do.

    However, why must I and others be forced to be positive all the time? At the MJHC I can vent about Mara Jade, whom I dislike. I don't do it at the movie forums, since I love the movies. I don't do it at Lit, since I'd be accused of trolling. I don't do it at the 3NS Cantina, because I don't want to bring the place down. It's the only safe place to vent about something I dislike.

    We can't all be positive. Believe me, I'd like it if we were, especially in the AOTC forum, since bashers there drive me nuts.

    As I said before, we are a minority. We need to be heard. We really do. And Shelley's right, if people at Del Rey and LFL see that we aren't fond of a certain character, they'll take notice and possibly address those concerns. I see nothing wrong with that.

    As I said before, we mostly obey the TOS. We try to stay on topic. What more can we do?
  16. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    We can't all be positive. Believe me, I'd like it if we were, especially in the AOTC forum, since bashers there drive me nuts.

    Ditto. I still think this new rule, such as it is, ought to be expanded to the movie forums. Why only have it in EUC? Get all the negativity into one place on every forum! :)
  17. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    FID, you need to chill. No one is acusing anyone here or saying anything about a conspiracy. I'm trying to be reasonable and I have been very logical in my points. They are actually thought out.

    >>You're calling a hater club that's ALREADY >>been created before a 'fresh' idea?

    It doesn't matter if it was created before. These are new people with new ideas. If they decided to recreate your idea does that matter? Do they not have a right to speak or discuss what they want to?

    >>Because it's a waste of space on the >>server? That could be it.

    That could be it. And if that's the case, say so. However, if that's true why not archive things and create the space?

    >>That's stupid, you're suggesting there's a >>conspiracy between the older members of >>the EUC and the newer folks. Trust me, there is not.
    I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. I was suggesting that you have your POV and you created the thread. You see the MJHC as belonging to the HC and therefore are upset that it is not. At least that's the way it appears to me.

    >>And it seems to me this thread is only for >>the MJHC. Kinda one-sided don't ya think? >>The HC is not the "I hate EU" thread. Get >>your facts straight.

    your right. I do think it is one sided. However, the MJHC asked for discussion. I think it is very one-sided of the MODS to only allow threads they like.

    >>Depends who you're asking. If you like the >>way things have been done, chances are >>you're not going to like changing that.

    No one likes change. That's the point behind this thread in the first place. The MJHC doesn't want to change. The MODs (and persumably members of the EU) want it to change so that it can go back to the way it was. Change WILL happen and not everyone will like it.

    >>The 'we' I'm referring to is >>Barnsthefatjedi and myself. We started a >>haters' group. Actually. He proposed it to

    So, is your opinion that since the MJHC doesn't want to join your club they can't exist?
  18. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    FID, you need to chill. No one is acusing anyone here or saying anything about a conspiracy. I'm trying to be reasonable and I have been very logical in my points. They are actually thought out

    Thought out, yet misquoted. Uh-huh...I don't like being put into a bad light. Which is what your 'quote' did.


    It doesn't matter if it was created before. These are new people with new ideas. If they decided to recreate your idea does that matter? Do they not have a right to speak or discuss what they want to?

    Of course they do. But that's not the point. The point is if the thread should stay. I don't think it should. And I've said so since the start of that place.

    That could be it. And if that's the case, say so. However, if that's true why not archive things and create the space?

    I think only particular threads get archived.

    your right. I do think it is one sided. However, the MJHC asked for discussion. I think it is very one-sided of the MODS to only allow threads they like.

    LoL [face_laugh] he thinks the mods like the HC. Mods have never liked the HC. Except maybe LB and SpiderDevil (who's not a mod). Unless this thread is advocating keeping open all hater threads. This thread is very one-sided and has a double standard to it. Just because a thread has a large post count doesn't mean the mods owe you or your clubs anything. They shut my senate down once. Why? Because it became a useless social thread. Which the MJHC seems to be degrading into.

    No one likes change. That's the point behind this thread in the first place. The MJHC doesn't want to change. The MODs (and persumably members of the EU) want it to change so that it can go back to the way it was. Change WILL happen and not everyone will like it.

    Oh and let me pull something off....exactly but here.

    "Change WILL happen and not everyone will like it"

    HEY! Maybe these MJHC folks should take your advice.

    So, is your opinion that since the MJHC doesn't want to join your club they can't exist?

    I could really care less if they wanted to join the HC. The HC stopped being fun when Barns was banned. Thus I don't keep up with it too much.
  19. jadesaber2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    You know, I've been following the NJHC for a long time - since it was started by a troll. I expected to see it locked. Much to my amazement, it wasn't.

    Next thing I know, it was co-opted by people who hate the EU in general, but hate Mara with a passion. The thread grew by leaps and bounds, and even some EU fans started posting about how they dislike Mara. But it wasn't productive growth. Sure, there's some actual discussion about why people hate Mara - whenever a Mara fan comes in and asks them why they hate Mara so much. They've even started discussing book excerpts dealing with Mara.

    But a lot of what I saw in the thread was post after post of "I hate Mara!" and "Mara SUCKS!" Posted by the same people.

    I've also seen a lot of fanfiction - all dealing with the many horrible ways a person can die, and written with explicit details. I don't know, I'm not entirely sure, but doesn't fanfiction belong in the Fanfiction Forum?

    There's also a lot of discussion of other aspects of the EU that they don't like - for example, Bria, Isolder, and the Solo kids are discussed, along with the way Luke, Leia, and Han have been portrayed in the EU.

    Then there's the two-page responses to trolls, when a single PM would have sufficed.

    And another thing about the rapid growth of the thread. I've noticed that on many occasions, a poster will post several times in a row, only a minute or two apart, responding to the preceding posts. They could easily have consolidated all their posts into one post.

    All in all, what I've seen is:

    40% actual discussion of Mara
    25% "Mara SUCKS!" and "I hata Mara!"
    20% fanfiction
    10% discussion of other characters, and the sory state of the EU in general
    5% responses to trolls

    That's not a good percentage of discussion.
  20. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    So let me get this straight,

    The only reasons the thread is being closed is because

    a) redundant

    That's still the only reason I've seen yet. I don't believe it is redundant.

    I would like to say I am not part of the MJHC. I think that as long as they break no rules, they should be allowed to stay. I think any group who doesn't break the rules should be allowed to stay.

    I think the mods should be fair to everyone. Including the fans of the MJHC.

    Now I also saw a post that suggested what the mods are trying to do is keep all the negativity in one place. Well, I applaud that. However, the MJHC is clearly marked, IMO so I do not think this violates what they are trying to do either.

    Again I ask, what is the harm of letting them stay where they are? And why are you (mod) being unfair to a group of individuals?

    Lastly, FID, the written words of one individual can always be taken the wrong way. You have taken what I've said wrong in 2 posts now. I'm not getting emotional or upset about it. You misunderstood me or used what I said to make a point. Fine, that's life; it happens. You should learn to live with it when you get the same thing in return. I was trying to debate what you said, not personally attack you or make you look bad. If your arguments are foolish though, that is not a fault of mine. In this instance though, I misunderstood what you were trying to say I believe.
  21. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Let me ask this,

    Is the reason people want the MJHC thread closed because of the "senseless" posting on it? Or what?

    If that's the real reason behind this, wouldn't it be a lot fairer to the people involved for the mod of the community to go into the board and publicly post to everyone on that board to do more than socialise or post random trivial senseless things or else they would close the thread?

    Wouldn't it be fair to give them a chance to clean up their thread than just shutting it down?


    If this has nothing to do with the reason why the thread is being closed someone (mod) say something.
  22. jadesaber2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    Is the reason people want the MJHC thread closed because of the "senseless" posting on it?

    I don't think that's the reason for closing it. I was simply responding to everyone who said the MJHC had "85 pages of discussion," and pointing out that it's more like 35 pages of discussion and 50 pages of off-topic posts, fanfiction, and short, repetitious posts.
  23. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
  24. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Perhaps this thread has turned about the MJHC, but I'm in favor of keeping all the Hater threads open. I would have no problem with that at all.

    jadesaber2, I have to respectfully disagree with you about the contents of the thread. Yes, we write the torture fics and death matches. But they started around page 20 or so. They haven't always been part of the thread.

    40% actual discussion of Mara
    I beg to differ. We talk about her all the time.

    25% "Mara SUCKS!" and "I hata Mara"
    Yes, some of us say that. We add "Mara sucks" at the end of our post, [/i] after[/i] we have given reasons why we dislike her.

    20% fanfiction
    I agree with that. As to why we didn't do it in the fanfic forum, the reasons are there. We would have all been banned or flamed. Simple, really.

    Also, it was a way of having fun. Almost all of our members participated in that. No one forced them to. We decided, on a consensus, that it'd be fun to write her the way we feel she should be written. It was our right to do so.

    10% discussion of other characters, and the sory state of the EU in general
    You neglected to mention that we discuss her in terms of Mara. We talk of the Solo kids and how they have begun worshipping her (in our opinion). We talk of Bria in that we think she and Mara are a lot alike.

    As for the EU, yes, many of us dislike it. BUT NOT ALL. We have many who agree with us that are members of the EUDF. They like the EU. You know this, since you read our thread.

    5% response to trolls
    I'd say a little less. We don't use, and I quote you here: "two-page responses to trolls". We tell them to leave the thread, for the better good, and call DA. It's a gross exaggeration, IMO, that you say we waste two pages on them.

    This was off topic, but I wanted to respond to that.
    I apologize.
  25. Dark Jedi Tam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2000
    star 4
    jadesaber2 wrote:
    And another thing about the rapid growth of the thread. I've noticed that on many occasions, a poster will post several times in a row, only a minute or two apart, responding to the preceding posts. They could easily have consolidated all their posts into one post.


    Compared to Jedi_Liz's multiple posts in a row in the Mara Jade Fan Club? Or how about those posts that say "UP!!!!! WE MUST STAY ABOVE THE HATER GROUP!!" posts just to add to the threads growth? Don't just single out the MJHC for that, because it's done in ALL threads. Fan clubs, hater groups, etc.
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