EUC Thread Closures

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sreya, Sep 12, 2002.

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  1. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Good point. Since when are consecutive posts by different members a crime?
    It's not spamming.
  2. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    While I respect the mods' decision to try to improve the EU, I firmly disagree with them on this.

    Not only has there been no real explanation on why this is occuring, it would create a double standard in the EUC. Why is it wrong to have hater threads dealing with specific characters when fan clubs about every EU character from Xanatos to Chelev are allowed? That is a double-standard. If all the fan clubs were condensed into one, I wouldn't have a problem.

    And it has been generalized that all the haters hate the same things and wouldn't have any problems being forced together. This is simply not the case. For example, I do not like Bria. In the Bria hating thread we've had genuine discussions on what aspects of her character we do not like and how the protrayal of Leia in the EU has helped boost Bria's popularity. We are having legitimate and specific discussions.

    On the other hand, I like Mara. Therefore I do not post in the Mara Jade Hater's Club. Why must I be forced to wade through posts bashing Mara when I do not have to? I'm sure there are Mara haters who like Bria and who wouldn't want to deal with my posts either. Why must we change these threads when they are already working efficiently and allowing the fans to discuss what the specific topics that they choose?

    And it isn't fair to us if the mods close these threads because they don't like hater clubs. My opinons are valid and I have a right to them. I shouldn't be corraled in with a bunch of other fans who don't want to talk about what I dislike just because the mods don't like the topics of our threads. These hater communities are isolated groups who do not harass of flame anyone. We have not broken one JC rule. How is it far that the mods are shutting us down just because they don't like hating threads? Mods are the leaders of these boards; they must do what is fair and just and right, regardless of their own feelings.

    And if they're going to do this, where's the post telling the Kyp Durron fan club it has to meld with the Xanatos fan club? Why is the Han and Leia fan club allowed to exist on it's own but not our thread? Very simply, it is a double standard.

    And people are saying these hater threads are redundant. How is it that two threads, one discussing why they don't like Mara and one discussing why they don't like Bria are redundant, when two threads, one discussing why they like Jacen and one discussing why they like Janson aren't redundant? It's the same thing; none of these threads are redundant. If two are redundant, they other two are as well.

    Maybe I wouldn't be so against this if a few questions where sufficiently explained to me:

    How will removing these threads benefit the EUC? And I've been told that these threads are derailing the EUC. How so? What is it about hater threads and not fan clubs that sidetracks the EUC? We're talking about three or four isolated threads with responsible posters; what have we done wrong?

    Why is it okay to allow fan clubs but not hater clubs? Why are they not redundant if the hater threads are?

    What harm will it do the EUC to allow these few threads to continue? It won't cut down on the number of threads; there are very few hater threads compared to fan clubs. It will make people angry and being forced into one thread together.


    I used to post in the EUC's old Hater Community very often. It's a good place for general rants about the EU. "I didn't like this series of books because..." "This scene was poorly written because..." And often, we'd get onto completely other topics however like how we hated school. Those topics are fine and should be allowed in a general haters community like the mods are proposing. But why eliminate other threads that are character-specific? Consolidating all these threads will only create divisions amongst the fans in the one large hater thread.

    Maybe a compromise could be reached. Leave the exsiting threads alone but not allow any new hating threads to be created. This was done in the 3NS forum
  3. JangoFettClone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 4
    "FREE HAT, FREE HAT"

    I mean cmon, let them have their own fanclub thread.... really
  4. Dark Jedi Tam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2000
    star 4
    <applauds loudly at Adi_Gallia_9's post>

    Very, very well said!

    And thank you for reposting my post as well! :)
  5. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    *joins in applauding Adi's post*

    Very well said.
    And this is indicative of the fact that this is not just the MJHC that is affected. There are other hater threads who would like to remain open.
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I do respect the desicion to improve the boards, but how is favoring one group of fans over the other going to accomplish that? If character-specific fan clubs are to be allowed, then it's only fair to all the fans that character-specific hating clubs are allowed.

    Actually the double standard only exists in this thread. The original poster was complaining about only the MJHC. You see, double standard there. What gives this redundant club more right than the others?

    The flame wars issue. That is what this is really all about. Unless you're 2 and don't know how to conduct yourself properly there won't be a flame war. I find it offensive as well to suggest that such a thing would occur. You obviously have a low opinion of posters on these boards.
  7. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Actually, Sreya does make it a case for other hater threads.

    This also applies to many other threads that are being closed in the EUC, not just the Mara Jade thread.

    Just wanted to point out that it isn't solely about the MJHC, even though it seems so.
  8. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Still, the fact remains. She was defending the club more than the others. Like "Oh yeah, the other clubs might be closed too."
  9. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    There would be no fan club thread. Too many people disagree there. The HC is where mostly everyone agrees and discusses their hate of a particular EU topic.

    One -- a particular EU topic would mean a thread talking about one topic... ie the Mara Jade Hater Club, or Dawn of a Mary Sue. The HC is not for particular topics, its for general discussion.

    Two -- mostly everyone does NOT agree in there. Almost everything someone posts eventually gets a "Well, I liked that" comment. Which is fine when it's random silly comments, but when heated discussions get going, that's the LAST thing someone wants to see.

    And concerning the proposed "condensement," Adi Gallia has already posted above that, while she posts in the Dawn of a Mary Sue thread, she will not want to wade through posts about Mara. She doesn't agree with it.

    ?Hater? threads are environments where discussion is virtually impossible. Because of the nature of the thread, anyone posting in the thread that isn?t trolling is one who hates a given character. Whereas people who like something have a lot that they can discuss, discussion of negatives tends to quickly dissolve into ?I agree! It?s awful!? Once they reach that point, they don?t really have far to go.

    There are currently over two thousand posts in the MJHC. At least 1500 of those are on topic, and that's likely a conservative estimate. There is PLENTY of discussion. And what is not discussion is creativity, parodies, and other amusements.

    Jumping to conclusions, she is. First thing's first. Most of the people in the HC already hate Mara Jade, so that won't be anything new. We also hate, Callista, Bria, and any other bad chick that Luke has met. Trust me. The HC will not conflict with your views.

    I don't think that Jedi_Liz will mind if I mention her specifically as someone that does not agree with the MJHC, and I have been in touch with others who are also not looking forward to interacting with the MJHC. Adi Gallia has also stated her case quite well.

    Unless this thread is advocating keeping open all hater threads. This thread is very one-sided and has a double standard to it.

    That's EXACTLY what this thread is advocating. I don't want to see Dawn closed anymore than MJHC, or any other Haters thread. Because I feel that condensing them is only going to be asking for trouble.

    I used the MJHC as the main point because this is the thread I am most familiar with. While some may want to believe otherwise, I'm not really involved in the other Haters threads. But I think they deserve to stay open just as much as the MJHC.

    Because it became a useless social thread. Which the MJHC seems to be degrading into.

    Forgive me, but when did it start degrading into a social thread? In the last two weeks, we have been posting Mara quotes that demonstrate qualities we don't like, we've discussed various novel plots concerning her that we feel are ridiculous... when did it veer off-topic?

    The flame wars issue. That is what this is really all about. Unless you're 2 and don't know how to conduct yourself properly there won't be a flame war. I find it offensive as well to suggest that such a thing would occur. You obviously have a low opinion of posters on these boards.

    If bashing is supposed to be so rare, then why is there an entire EU DEFENSE FORCE for defending against bashing? The fact that this particular group is accepted as an active group in the EUC points to the fact that flame wars do break out. And if flaming is so rare, then we wouldn't need mods either.

    I have still not seen anything that convinces me that this is a good idea.

    Sreya
  10. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    If bashing is supposed to be so rare, then why is there an entire EU DEFENSE FORCE for defending against bashing? The fact that this particular group is accepted as an active group in the EUC points to the fact that flame wars do break out. And if flaming is so rare, then we wouldn't need mods either.

    The EUDF was created to keep bashers in check. Namely the movie forums. NOT the EUC. We discussed this before. And the EUDF and the HC have come to an understanding. This was a while back. We did almost get into a flame war. The EUS was created for just that purpose, to keep flame wars down. That is why it exists today because of the FADA FFDA episode. I'll have you know that the HC has been run perfectly with all the hate bundled together. And if there's any 'flame war' it's because of KansasNavy's mismanagement of it. Under Barns tenure as our Emperor, it ran quite smoothly and no such arguments came to light. I fail to see why this is such an issue now since no one complained before. Is it because the average EUC'er now has no sense of the EUC's 'history'?
  11. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    While flame wars have occurred before, that's not what I would be concerned about in one giant hater's thread. I respect every members of these boards unless they give me a reason not to, and so far no one in the EUC beyond the occasional troll has given me that reason. I, as well as all the other people against this decision, don't want a huge hater thread because we wouldn't be able to discuss the one area of the EU that we want to discuss.

    As I've said, I'm interested in talking about Bria and her effects on the EU. I don't want to talk about how Mara, the Solo kids, or anyone else is a bad character as I like them. All we want is sepcific threads where we can discuss the one aspect of the EU we want to talk about. A huge hater thread would create a divided thread; not one that will have flame wars, but one that has totally different opinions on various topics. All we are asking for is the ability to discuss that one aspect we're interested in. Is that so ridiculous a request when you allow so many other posters to do that already?

    And please, someone on the other side of the debate, answer the questions I posted. The thing I find most frustrating about this all is how no one has properly explained to us why they want our threads locked. If there is no reasonable answer for this, why bother doing it? What does it matter if there are three of four haters threads? How are we negatively impacting the EUC? What difference will the locking of maybe four threads really make?
  12. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    One thing about any group like the haters' or any other club. It gets old real quick. There's only so much hate that can be posted. And vented.
  13. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Is it because the average EUC'er now has no sense of the EUC's 'history'?

    The average user today has no knowledge of that history, seeing as most of them weren't around to help create it.

    JMA
  14. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    FID does make a good point. This thread has spoken almost exclusively about the MJHC. And FID is correct about that. However, the only thing I can respond to that is the MJHC is the only thread I've heard about being closed down. If there are others, then this whole affair may not seem so grossly unfair as it does.

    Are there others?

    Edit:
    >>I fail to see why this is such an issue >>now since no one complained before. Is it >>because the average EUC'er now has no >>sense of the EUC's 'history'?
    Again, I have to ask, why do we need to know the history of the EUC? I'm new around here. Why can I not make up my own mind and voice my opinion and say that the way the current system is unfair to the people like MJHC and that it should change? Why can't it change? Just because you have a history?
    The issue that was originally brought up was that the MJHC thread should not be closed. I am a poor lowly member who has still not seen any reason why that thread should be closed. I'm not asking much. Just a good reason. I haven't seen one yet. The only thing I've seen are people arguing that it is redundant and they dislike the idea of hater threads. I fail to see how that is sufficient reason to close the thread.
  15. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    As far as I know, there is one other, the Dawn of a Mary Sue: Bria Tharen Hater Club. The problem is that both clubs are expected to use the Haters Community thread for our discussions... and there are members in one club that LIKES the character talked about in the other, and doesn't want to wade through discussion about how much that other character sucks.

    See what I mean?

    The point is that each of these groups was created to focus on a single issue, a single character, a single discussion. Those who want to avoid the discussion can easily do so. This condensement is going to cause people to butt heads a lot more often.

    There have also been other thread closures, dealing with different issues, that I'd heard fussing about. The EUC is losing a LOT of threads, and people are getting very, very frustrated. Particularly when it's a mod-only decision.

    Sreya

    EDIT: History
    I'm certainly not a newbie, and I can still remember the creation of the EUC and EUDF and other such entities referred to here. So please do not make blanket statements about being unaware of such history. I'm trying very hard not to recreate the flame wars I've seen in the past.
  16. jadesaber2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
  17. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    EDIT: History
    I'm certainly not a newbie, and I can still remember the creation of the EUC and EUDF and other such entities referred to here. So please do not make blanket statements about being unaware of such history. I'm trying very hard not to recreate the flame wars I've seen in the past.


    I was referring to the people who are agreeing with your point of view. They all (for the most part) have had '02 by their registration dates.


    It does not matter. You're going to have to learn that not everyone is going to agree with your views. I certainly do not as I see no point in haters' clubs if that's what the HC was created to solve.

    I'm new around here. Why can I not make up my own mind and voice my opinion and say that the way the current system is unfair to the people like MJHC and that it should change? Why can't it change? Just because you have a history?

    No, because it runs smoothly under the policies set forth before the newcomers came along. Why should it change for a minority?

    The issue that was originally brought up was that the MJHC thread should not be closed. I am a poor lowly member who has still not seen any reason why that thread should be closed. I'm not asking much. Just a good reason. I haven't seen one yet. The only thing I've seen are people arguing that it is redundant and they dislike the idea of hater threads. I fail to see how that is sufficient reason to close the thread.


    I don't think you'll find one beyond what's been stated.
  18. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    >>It does not matter. You're going to have >>to learn that not everyone is going to
    >>agree with your views.

    FDI: You are correct. Learn to deal with the fact not everyone agrees. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they shouldn't ask to change things. I think the people who started this thread are being very reasonable and asking that the situation be reviewed by the administration and whoever else needs to review it.

    >>No, because it runs smoothly under the >>policies set forth before the newcomers >>came along. Why should it change for a

    Please think about that comment for a bit. Let me point out history. Slavery ran smoothly in the US of A for a long time... and it DID change for a minority. (as did Women's right to vote)

    My point in saying that is not to cause hard feelings or accuse anyone. That is simply history and fact. It does make my point very specifically though.

    The people who started this thread are not being unreasonable. I think it would be unreasonable to close their thread without a reason that is valid.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    You are correct. Learn to deal with the fact not everyone agrees. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they shouldn't ask to change things. I think the people who started this thread are being very reasonable and asking that the situation be reviewed by the administration and whoever else needs to review it.

    Policy is written and the mods are allowed to use their discrection. This thread seems more like a "Why was so and so banned?" thread.

    Please think about that comment for a bit. Let me point out history. Slavery ran smoothly in the US of A for a long time... and it DID change for a minority.

    Come now, you know better than that. That was not the point of my statement, and the JC is not real life.


    My point in saying that is not to cause hard feelings or accuse anyone. That is simply history and fact. It does make my point very specifically though.

    The people who started this thread are not being unreasonable. I think it would be unreasonable to close their thread without a reason that is valid



    Actually they are being unreasonable. DA gave his reasons, people refuse to accept them. Also, why is it that the mods need to give a reason? Surely someone told you the JC is not a democracy.


  20. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    **OFF TOPIC**

    This may be offtopic but I'd like the chance to say it.

    The mods...
    The fact is they probably handle 100 issues a day. 99 of them we never hear about. Lately there has been lots of complaints against the mods and/or staff. They probably don't get half the respect or appreciation that they should. I am happy with the mod I have for the Southeast FF boards. She's always been there and has done a ton of things the regular user doesn't get to see. I'm sure it is the same with all the other mods on the boards.

    Someone should say Thanks more often to those people...it is volunteer.

    **end thanks**

    I can still disagree with a decision though! ;-)
  21. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Oh, so can I. But for this issue I'm siding with the mods. Sorry, but I see the logic in this. And the faulty logic that has been presented doesn't sway me.
  22. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2

    >>Actually they are being unreasonable. DA >>gave his reasons, people refuse to accept >>them. Also, why is it that the mods need >>to give a reason? Surely someone told you >>the JC is not a democracy.

    You are right. The JC is not a democracy. We did not elect the mods/staff nor do we get the chance to "vote" new ones in at any time. But it is also policy that we can ask for reasons and ask that others review a mods decision. And isn't this the place to try and get something changed? There are a whole lot worse things the people who asked that the decision be reconsidered could do than ask for discussion. I think everyone should at least here them out.

    In fact, I know there is an official thread that has in it...

    "If you feel a Mod wrongly locked a thread, banned a member, or behaved improperly"

    We are all human here. Not one person here is absolutely right or wrong. The only reason DA gave for closing the thread (at least in the thread) was it is redundant.

    If it were redundant, then I really doubt people would be having a problem with this.

  23. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Yes they would. Look at how many people are actually posting here. Not that many. What does that show you?
  24. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    My main concern is that there are a group of threads (Haters threads) that should have been encompassed by a single thread (The Haters Community) but have been free to grow.

    These threads are, in a sense, redundant. THe Haters Community is a long established thread that was designed to hold the exact sentiments expressed in all of those Haters threads. That cannot be disputed.

    Now, during the time that they have been operating outside the Haters Community they have attracted quite alot of users and have become quite popular. The question is, now that the decision has been made to move them back into the Haters Community where they belong, is the move going to squash the sense of friendship that these users have? Are they and their club going to suffer by moving their conversation to another thread?

    THere has to be a blanket action, the administration cannot allow special cases. EIther all Haters threads move back into the Haters Community or are left to roam free or all are removed from discussion entirely.

    I feel that the best way to allow these groups to continue to express their opinions in peace is to move them back into the Haters Community then redirect any new future Haters threads in there as well. Trolling and hostility is an issue for the administration. We cannot be afraid to make changes to forum structure because we are scared that it may be trolled. That's just silly.

    If anyone has any other suggestions (aside from leaving them be, that's obvious ;) ) please let me know.
  25. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Well...was that good enough for everyone? He basically restated what I said in the beginning of the MJHC and the Bria haters club. :p
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