Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Feb 23, 2014.
Thanks both. *blush*
Not exactly the point of the thread when I made it, but considering Hungary IS a country with a somewhat popular ultranationalist group (Jobbik), I'd like to see what everyone thinks about this.
I... can't actually tell from that what he's actually advocating for?
He wants to join Russia in being a bastion of illiberal shame, and therefore is beyond reproach by Vivec who can only criticise the Anglosphere nowadays.
I'm glad you've taken this opportunity to make some sort of weird attack against me rather than be a contributing member of this thread.
What do you want me to say?
There's a point you're unwilling to make here.
Fundamentally, I am completely comfortable holding a belief that liberalism is the most fair ideology and that I'm willing to critique those who are in opposition - violently or otherwise - to it.
If Hungary decides to follow the lead of an illiberal state like Russia in eschewing liberal democratic values, then I'm absolutely willing to write them off and I think that this tendency towards ultranationalism is far more dangerous for migrants and Muslims that any liberal hand-wringing over the incompatibility of certain belief structures.
This move should be roundly condemned.
What point am I unwilling to make?
Yeah, Ender -- just to be fair to Vivec here, I think the original premise of the thread was "European Ultranationalists" on the scale of primarily anti-immigrant (and specifically anti-Muslim / anti-Semetic) properties or more fascist or pro-white postulations rather than this particular instance of what appears to fall under this thread but be about becoming an illiberal state.
I'm still not 100% sure what the dude is asking for, but it didn't seem like Vivec was okay with it.
No, but he's stopped short of giving a view on it too, which is problematic for me as there's been a recent trend towards critiquing nobody but Western liberal democracies, esp those allied with or like-minded with the US. I would like to hear Vivec's view on this enunciated, and simply sharing it and tying it vaguely to the OP isn't a viewpoint.
1) Of course I'm against this.
2) A country being liberal doesn't suddenly make it a saint.
3) You didn't just want to hear my opinion on this; you saw an opportunity for a pot shot and you took it.
4) If you don't like it that I made a post without explicitly stating my opinion...well, maybe someone shouldn't have advocated for an end to those Senate rules, eh?
I never doubted you were against it; I don't assume Russia's chain jerking of Ukrainian separatists, its treatment of gays or its troubling slide into autocracy are to your liking either but you've been unwilling to the point of discomfort to broadly condemn actions. It's a sad novelty but your recent form has avoided, almost painstakingly, criticising anyone who isn't Western.
OK, a bit late with this.
I do hear that antisemitism is on the rise again in parts of Europe, but I think a lot of that is to do with the current tragedy that's unfolding between Israel and Palestine - In Europe much of the reporting of this conflict is anti-Israeli. From a European perspective, Israels actions are a PR disaster, but I guess they've got more important things to worry about than European sensibilities.
Of course some countries have a more fundamental issue, particularly France, I think, but I from what I see in the UK I certainly don't see anything particularly worrying in terms of antisemitism. In this country, we've got two of the most important role's in politics currently filled by Jewish people - Ed Milliband LOTO (And possibly soon to be Prime Minister) and John Bercow (Speaker of the House Of Commons)
As for the European Elections and the rise of extreme parties I would say there are several different issue's going on.
In the UK the European elections are pretty much seen as a joke and as a way to send a great big **** you to the ruling class. UKIP topped the poll but when the turnout is so pitiful it's hard to take it seriously.
What I take from the UKIP winning the European election is what we already know.
1. We do need a debate and a referendum on our continued involvement with the European Union. Anybody born after 1957 would never have had a say on whether they want to remain within the EU. There is so much skepticism about the EU that it's reached an unsustainable level, IMO, so the question need's to be asked.
2.Some communities are fed up with immigration (both past and current) This is not a new situation. When any country has a vast level of change to immigration, you'll always get a minority of the community that doesn't want it. Farage very cleverly preyed on these people's fears (some of those fears real and some imagined) during the EU campaign, but we shouldn't get carried away about this.
Fundamentally Britain has always been one of the most tolerant and welcoming nations of Earth and by and large we stay that way.
3. We are living in the era of "anti-politics" when people are looking for "outsiders" to shake things up. There are many reason's for this, but I think a lot of it is to do with the let-down people feel from Tony Blair. There was a HUGE amount of trust invested in Blair - His majorities and popularity were extraordinary. From 1997 to 2002 the guy was untouchable. Then came Iraq. That war destroyed the trust people have in the political process and in their politicians. That trust has never recovered.
We also had a terrible expense's scandal where it turned out most of the politicians were cheating the system for their own financial reward. That play's a part. And of course there's the media, who in their cynicism help to destroy trust in politics. 24hr media has to present every passing squall for the government and opposition as a major crisis, which again erodes trust. It's the same issue's as most of western countries in other words.
The "anti-politics" thing is concerning but again I don't think we should get carried away.I think most people are capable of differentiating between voting for someone like Farage in a pointless EU election and voting for him in a general election. It will be interesting to see what UKIP eventually polls in the general election next year. My own view is that they'll be lucky to poll 5% and may not even win one seat, If they do win seats it will be 2-3 at most.
I've criticized non-westerners all the time:
1) Before I criticized al-Sisi, I criticized the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
2) I've routinely criticized Assad
3) I've criticized Russia's support of Assad
4) Literally the whole point of this thread was to criticize parties you'd label as illiberal.
I'm just not married to liberalism like you are.
The issue though is that threads dealing with these topics aren't really on the front page. The other issue is that, much to Wocky's dismay, the JCC isn't the only place I post to. You're only seeing a fraction of my posts.
i may be late to the party but i am in full-scale nyashamania right now and i dont care who knows it
(this is her rejecting nyash-myash, if i had to guess)^
and this one is my new avatar!^
bonus ace attorney ref^
There's no joke in existence for how late you are on this.
i blame you for not telliing me about her
EDIT: more to the point, for not telling me about the weird internet following that has sprung up around her
After waiting more than an hour and a half for her date, the young lady decided she had been stood up.
She changed from her dinner dress into pajamas and slippers, fixed some popcorn and resigned herself to an evening of TV.
No sooner had she flopped down in front of the TV than her doorbell rang. There stood her date.
He took one look at her and gasped, “I’m two hours late . . . and you’re still not ready?”
damnit now i am browsing a reddit. i hate myself
I've never seen a pretty blonde woman in media before!
for contrast, here's this buffoon
So I guess we now know how to defeat rogue_ten.