Senate European ultranationalists!

Iello, it would be highly unusual if the Iranian embassy in Rome didn't have an awareness of what the Italians intended.

Chyntuck, I have a few times articulated a point and I linked to a Der Spiegel piece where German feminists Alice Schwarzer and Anne Wizorek debated the attacks in Cologne.

I mention this, and link the post, since you obviously didn't read it.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/european-ultranationalists.50018610/page-23#post-53190842

I'll let Schwarzer make the points since you may actually listen to her:

Schwarzer: The debate over sexual violence has re-emerged as a result of that night in Cologne. Even Germany's justice minister, who for years allowed necessary reforms to tighten Germany's rape laws torot in a drawer, has pulled them out again. But when you only speak using generalizations, you run the danger of denying the specific. In recent decades, millions of people have come to us from cultural groups within which women have absolutely no rights. They do not have a voice of their own and they are totally dependent on their fathers, brothers or husbands. That applies to North Africa and that applies to large parts of the Middle East. It isn't always linked to Islam. But since the end of the 1970s, at the beginning of the revolution in Iran under Khomenei, we have experienced a politicization of Islam. From the beginning, it had a primary adversary: the emancipation of women. With more men now coming to us from this cultural sphere, and some additionally brutalized by civil wars, this is a problem. We cannot simply ignore it.

...

But if we keep denying that there are problems with some male immigrants, then we will just drive the people into the arms of the right-wing populists. Without the ignorance or the trivialization on the part of all the political parties, there would be no Pegida or Alternative for Germany.

...

Even stricter rape laws wouldn't have done anything to stop the crimes in Cologne. Groping, a trivializing word, isn't even a prosecutable offense yet.

 

GrandAdmiralJello Well that's the thing, nudity is nudity whether it is dressed up as "art" or not, and for some, nudity is sinful and bad and not something to be associated with. I don't see any difference between covering up nudity and not serving alcohol in terms of protocol. But I think it is a good question as to why they chose the musuem as the venue in the first place. I guess nobody really considered that anyone would have a major problem with boxing up a few nude statutues. I guess they learned a lesson!

 

Yeah I think maybe the PM should have actually, you know, asked Rouhani's people if they wanted the statues removed or if he might actually want to see the things that you go to a museum for. It's silly more than it is deeply offensive, but still. I mean, maybe they did ask. The whole thing seems a little slapdash.

As for the swimming pool issue... As Yankee says, it's pretty clearly discriminatory and I take his word for it that it's against German law. But I think there's also a reason you're only seeing this is one town and not anywhere near Berlin (which, as Ender pointed out, is already a very multicultural city). People in this town are probably not as used to seeing people of color daily and so when some of these new folks in town are behaving badly, it's easy to overreact.

Some personal perspective... In my experience, there are more Hispanic young men (especially ones who haven't always lived in the US) who will chat up and catcall women than there are white or black or Asian men who will do the same (at least of the cultures in SoCal. As I've already mentioned, Italian men are often the same). Machismo culture is real. However, as someone who lives in Southern California, I realize there are also far more Hispanic men who won't do this. Because I have a large sample size, I can realize a higher frequency is not the same thing as "everyone" or "most". But in Missouri where I'm originally from, there aren't very many Hispanic people at all. So if there were a sudden influx of immigrants and some were harassing women, I'm sure there would be a more discriminatory reaction there. As usual, a lot of racist and discriminatory behavior just depends on how much actual contact you've had as a person.

I don't think at all that Germany is turning into a Nazi country. I do, however, realize that an influx of immigrants to places that have had somewhat less diversity will also often create opportunities for the true far-right groups to cause trouble and to draw in a section of the population that is freaked out and uncertain, even if those reactions are fairly normal. But on the whole, Germany is indeed the country that's actually been overall welcoming people in. Even though people are justifiably worried about many practical questions of how you do this.

So as for the pool... I really think this is an example of why ID cards are needed for refugees and migrants. Because they allow you to identify and treat people as specific individuals. Have you, person with your name and picture ID, never harassed a woman at the pool? Great, come on in! Have you specifically harassed women there? Sorry, you are now banned.

To me, this is no different than any public pool. At least here in the US, one can certainly be banned from such a place for bad behavior, regardless of skin color or anything else.

 

I would assume because Hassan Rouhani is a former academic and scholar that they felt it would be appropriate..?

EDIT: SJ. The PM's office will have 100% liaised with the Iranian Embassy in Rome. Someone there will have been aware of, requested, or approved the decision. Trust me.

 

I mean, one would assume so. It just makes me wonder why on earth they selected the museum in the first place. It's just strange.

 

I don't think the problem is that there's nude statues being covered up. I think the problem is that there's people who take offence at nude statues.

 

Yes, but in this instance it sounds like the First Secretary at the Embassy suggested in order to not offend, any nudity should be covered up. Given Hassan Rouhani's philosophical and reformist bent, plus the gifts he gave the Pope, antiquities and history seem to be interests of his.

Any point where a HOS or Minister visits, the office of the PM/President will coordinate with the Embassy of that country. Usually the most senior diplomat (the ambassador is oft a political appointment so they wouldn't be involved in day to day operational stuff), who takes charge of liaison with the home country.

It is unheard of for, say, the State Department to liaise with the counterparts overseas. The embassy of the country in question would do this.

So Iranians approved or requested it. I'm not sure which but it was one of the two.

 

Just not those aspects of antiquities and history which involve the display of breasts or male genitalia it appears. So pretty much nothing to do with Italy

 

I think the problem is that people care. If someone, theoretically, was offended by this:




What's the harm in changing to this?


Especially if, unlike in the situation I've taken as a parallel, you were talking about a one time occurrence made out of deference to a guest? At that point, it becomes an issue of basic civility.

 

Yeah I believe the photo risk also played into it as per the above photo. Not a good look for the folks back home.

 

Not sure Rouhani would let breasts and male genitalia stand in the way of aid to the Shiite people.
His position on nudity should be completely ignored, discarded as irrelevant and quaint.

 

It's cool guys, you've also had lots of experience in diplomacy.

I've no doubt that Mr Rouhani had no input to this decision. Iranian diplomats and bureaucrats did.

 

Somebody should breast-feed next to him

 

Superwatto, I thank you for the advice from the Donald Trump school of diplomacy. For the rest of the world, where diplomacy is not about intentionally embarrassing or belittling visitors, I don't see the worth of your position. You are literally trying to alienate people who feel differently than you. Why? What's the point?

 

Wocky, it would be remiss of me not to point out that's been America's diplomatic position for years.

 

To a regrettable extent, it does. That doesn't mean that there aren't voices advocating to change it. Or that we should give Superwatto a pass for arguing others should not only join in but double down.

 

Wonderful what a change of face can do in a dictatorship.
I don't think anybody would have objected to boobs behind Ahmedinejad. In fact, I think they would have objected to his coming in the first place.

You've been duped by classic Machiavellianism.

 

Um, look - I think France was wrong. I think as a host, decorum dictates that you accommodate the wishes, preferences and tastes of your guest. However, we are a little more... well rounded in the diplomatic game than a number of developing nations. You would not expect to have wine served at an official function in an "Islamic" state, even if the guests might prefer to drink it.

It's just a set of rules for a Game, really, and I think France was taking a curiously silly stance. The advantage of being a stronger state is you can be more flexible and accommodating - that's why we do it.

EDIT: Watto, you know I used to do this stuff for a living right? I know how diplomatic visits go. Rouhani had no input to this.

 

The President of Iran is not a dictator.

 

I'm sure that will be almost verbatim the official conclusion in the inevitable report which will accompany the firing of the most junior diplomatic people after this fracas dies down.

 

ES, I understand Rouhani was probably not involved in any of these decisions. Guy, I understand he's not the dictator.
But both: he's a representative of an extremely repressive regime.

But okay, I'll grant you that it would have been much wiser to just receive the man elsewhere.