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Senate European ultranationalists!

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
  2. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001

    Yes, I am a Ghost. [face_devil]

    Ender Sai, you know, if you know David Duke, that it is silly to lump him in next to Bannon and Pence. Duke is a washed up, hateful racist. He literally disappeared for years and years. Dropped off the map. Are we to believe Trump rehabilitated him by dragging him out of Aryan Storage Inc. and making him a conduit to the white nationalists for this election? or is it possible he responded to Trump's isolationism and nationalism?

    edit:

    A question though:
    Is there any real coordination in Europe among these groups like AfD, etc? Does their national view keep them apart where otherwise may not be? I know a little bit about AfD and FNP(mostly some players and issues), but not much else.
    Do they actually work together or is it more the enemy of my enemy in concert against the EU?
     
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Dunno if this is more relevant here or in the US Politics thread, but as a growing sense of authoritarianism, such a it may exists as a part of ultranationalism movements:

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...thoritarian-intellectual-works-for-trump.html


     
  4. Point Given

    Point Given Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 12, 2006
  5. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    She'll lose to anyone in the run off. Don't underestimate the French people or the voting system - its designed to ensure tactical voting and prevent the likes of Le Pen ever reaching the Elysee Palace.
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    If I'm supposed to be cheering on either Fillon or Macron because "they're not Le Pen," well, I can't seem to find myself doing so.
     
    Darth Guy likes this.
  7. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012

    You don't have to cheer or even like it, just those two are better options than the Front National.
     
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  8. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Didn't we just learn that false equivocation nets us President Trump?

    I don't know terribly much about anyone running for French government except Le Pen, and I can't imagine anyone being worse than her except her father...
     
  9. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 9, 2001
    The other candidates don't run on the concept of "not Le Pen", on the contrary. The socialist candidate actually has a very left-wing concept, which opened up room for Macron who has a completely different concept than anyone else.

    But the truth is, "not Le Pen" would very much work in France. This isn't the two-party system of the USA, people actually support even parties they disagree with if it helps beat the far-right.
    Chirac completely destroyed Le Pen's father in 2002, it was the biggest landslide in France ever, 82% of the votes went to Chirac. Not because Chirac was extremely popular - he wasn't, he was mired in corruption scandals - but because having Le Pen as president was deemed completely unacceptable.

    Now, Marine Le Pen is more popular than her father, as is her party, but the effect of voting to prevent Le Pen hasn't stopped working. Front National did exceptionally well in the first round of the departmental and regional elections in 2015, yet ended up hardly getting anything out of it in the second round. This layered voting system helps to prevent surprise victories that catch everyone off guard. You don't just need to be the one with the most votes out of the entire field of candidates, you also need to be the one who gets the most votes when people can decide who their next best option is.

    Le Pen has a good chance of winning the first round, but when it comes to the second round, she will be the underdog. If you look at the head-to-head polls, Macron beats her 65-35 and even Fillon was at 60-40 a few days ago. In fact, out of the entire field of possible candidates, meaning everyone who could have tried to become the candidate of his party, the only one she occasionally managed to beat in polls was Hollande. Everyone else was decisively ahead of her, at times even with a larger lead than Macron currently has. That doesn't make it a guarantee that she won't win, but it's not quite as easy a path as some people want to believe.
     
  10. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Socialist party is nearly in a worse state as the British Labour party thanks to the incompetence of Hollande. But, that's a debate for entirely different day.

    Marine is only popular than her father because she doesn't run around suggesting the holocaust didn't happen. The Front National has just replaced the obsession of Jews with Muslims - that's the only difference between daughter and father.
     
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  11. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    If you don't think Le Pen is worse, then you either don't really know what's going on... or all your talk about "brown people" is a facade.

    *ducks
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    No, what got us President Trump was a conventionally right-wing candidate promoting cynical Pragmatism and running on being Not Trump. (And because the way we choose Presidents is ****ing stupid.)
    I don't see Lord Vivec saying they're the same. Of course Le Pen is worse. That doesn't mean her Not Le Pen opponents aren't bad in their own rights.
     
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  13. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    It's just such a reductive statement. No, you don't have to cheer for just anybody just because they are not on the extreme right. Duh.
     
  14. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Look what happened in the US, when people said "yeah, but Hilary is the establishment..." and voted for 3rd parties.
     
  15. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    In my opinion, Fillon and Les Republicains are the extreme right. I can't actually decide whether Le Pen is worse than Fillon or not. Sure, Le Pen is bigoted, but her economic policies are not really right wing. Fillon on the other hand, is worse than ****ing Thatcher and he will cause a lot of people suffering if he becomes President of France. I know someone like you doesn't care, though. I mean, all that matters is that brown people aren't suffering because of a bigot. if they suffer because of a far right economic policy, that's fine!

    [​IMG]
     
  16. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    Economic policies as expounded by populists are lies to get votes. They'll sell out and work with conservative parties, who have no morals anyway.
    I believe such is shown in your own country on a daily basis these days.

    I'm not defending Fillon; I'm saying Le Pen is worse.

    Now, what do you have against Macron?
     
  17. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Vivec does make a point about Les Republicans more or less deciding to adopt Front National social policy to beat Le Pen. People forget Sarkozy was a massive racist as Interior Minister and, during the Paris riot, happily told residents he was going "get rid of them scum" - referring to African immigrants. The French right is very, very extreme compared to most centre-right parties.

    As for Macron, the guy lives in cloud cuckoo-land.

    But him and Fillon are better choices than Le Pen.
     
  18. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    He's a boring moderate whose entire campaign is about not doing anything. That's what moderates are, people who do nothing but fill the chair they're sitting in. They should not be encouraged to run for anything imo.
     
  19. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    I think moderate is the way to go. Because the alternatives all point towards disintegration of existing frameworks, most of which I would lament. Such as:
    1. European Union - it might not be very good yet, but we need one to make it better. Not having one is sure not to make it better.
    2. United Nations - see above
    3. Geneva Conventions - we need number 2 to uphold these
    4. Universal Declaration Of Human Rights - we need number 2 to uphold these
    5. Separation of Church and State - we need 4. and an absence of islamophobia to uphold this
    6. Freedom of Religion - we need 4. and an absence of islamophobia to uphold this
    7. Foreign Aid - we need 1. and an absence of islamophobia to uphold this
    If, like the ultranationalists want, nations go it on their own, the whole thing comes crumbling down. All seven frameworks mentioned above will vanish, and might someday be reframed, but only after another World War and it's "never again!" moment.

    You may think that's worth it. If so, I hope you're right, but I'm too cynical - I just see too many dead bodies on the way.
     
  20. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I mean, I probably should have said so in the beginning, but I am cheering someone on, even though he's from the world's second lamest Socialist party: Hamon.
     
  21. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    Okay well here's to hoping.

    Who's the first? Don't tell me.
     
  22. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I thought you were gonna guess?
     
  23. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    America's First!
    (for lamest socialist party)

    [face_flag]
     
  24. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
  25. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Geert Wilders has been doing that for years.