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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Euthanasia - should it be legal or illegal? (v2.0)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth Mischievous, Mar 18, 2005.

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  1. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Terri Schiavo's CAT Scan vs. a normal image:

    Terri Schiavo's brain as seen in CAT Scan

    The following quoted text contains info on the image in common terms and is easy to understand:


    This single image shows a very severely damaged brain. The large ?blue blobs? in the middle are ventricles, also present in healthy brains (you can see the two little dark crescent shapes in the brain on the right) that have expanded to such a large size because the overall brain volume is so low. Cranial space that would otherwize have been filled by gray matter is now filled with cerebrospinal fluid. And yes, that?s what the blue space is: cerebrospinal fluid that is filling up space left behind by necrotic brain tissue that has been scavenged and removed by the body. The white squiggly things are white matter - connective tracts that have the loose, uncoiled look about them that they do because, again, the grey matter that once compressed them is no longer there, so they ?float? loosely in CSF. The gigantic ventricles, expanded white matter, and undifferentiated blue space in that scan all point to the same thing: massive loss of grey matter in the cerebral cortex. You don?t need an MRI to tell you that, it?s clearly visible in the CAT scan.

    It is true that given the poor resolution of this image, it?s possible that some cortical tissue has been spared. But that doesn?t matter. Whatever wisps of cortex we might be missing in this image are not enough to sustain behaviors that could differentiate Terri Schiavo from any other vertebrate. All the neural equipment you need to do ocular following and emotional responses is subcortical. All the neural equipment you need to be a self-aware, reasoning, behaving human being is cortical. And since i gather this image was made some time ago, the present condition of the brain can only be worse.

    There is no way any qualified brain doctor or scientist could look at this image and suggest that significant recovery of function is possible. The fact that we could have all this discussion on the subject is a triumph of politics over science. Tragic for Terri Schiavo, and really for us all.


     
  2. Nyder

    Nyder Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2002
    I reckon they should freeze her.
     
  3. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    You've gotta be ****ing kidding me. Bush signed Schiavo's bill. *bangs head on desk* It's official, we are the stupidest society on the face of the earth.
     
  4. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    I hope the federal judge that is supposed to hear this case simply gives the finger to Congress and tells them to mind their own business.

    Seriosly, what the hell kind of precedent is this?

    If Congress decides they don't like the way a certain case is going, they can it (not the overall subject mind you, but a specific case) out of the system and put it in a court that they hope will give a result more to their liking.

    This is ******* ridiculus.

     
  5. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Hey, where are the cries of legislative activism? This is stupid. And I hope each and every member of congress that voted for this has their eyes gouged out by pidgeons.
     
  6. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    [image=http://www.athertonbluegum.com/images/white-headed%20pigeon.jpg]

    Raise the pigeon army!!!

     
  7. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Exactly, pidgeons, target congress. [face_devil]
     
  8. Acolyte-Phikoz

    Acolyte-Phikoz Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2005
    human beings are worth more than dogs, they have dignity and they have a living soul. terri's body may be incapacitated, but her sould is living on in her body. so therefore she deserves every right to live until her soul leaves her body naturally, not by speeding up her death just so we can make room for another person at the hospital.

    according to Flordia law i could get arrested for witholding food and water from a dog!! how much more is Terri worth than a dog!!!
     
  9. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    I wonder how many here who are outraged over Congress's actions think we should take every possible measure to make sure a convicted murderer on death row has access to every appeal.

    I wonder how many here would consider dehydration or starvation to be a cruel and unusual punishment if applied to a convicted criminal.

    I wonder how many here would cry foul if one detainee -- a suspected terrorist or accomplice to terrorism -- was denied even one meal.

    I wonder how many here don't care about activism at the federal level on life-and-death issues when they like the outcome, like when a federal courts decided that all forms of abortion are constitutionally protected.


    Fire has written that Bush's signing of Congress's bill is proof that "we are the stupidest society on the face of the earth."

    Others here seem to reel at the possibility that -- God forbid -- religious conservatives have influenced government, that Christians' votes actually do count.

    We can agree to disagree, but the sort of viciousness that is on display here is disgusting. If it stems from a knee-jerk opposition to Bush, Republicans, conservatives, or Christians, that doesn't speak highly of you.

    If it stems from a genuine desire to eliminate the inconvenient as quickly as possible, that's much worse.
     
  10. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    I wasn't aware a theological argument concerning a soul is a valid argument in our legal system. Maybe I missed that somewhere.

    Fire has written that Bush's signing of Congress's bill is proof that "we are the stupidest society on the face of the earth."

    Keeping an already dead woman alive is stupid. Care to argue otherwise, feel free to. But don't try to pretend that she'll ever get any better.
     
  11. Acolyte-Phikoz

    Acolyte-Phikoz Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2005
    "Nutrition and hydration (wheter orally administered or medically assited) are sometimes withdrawn not because a patient is dying, but because a patient is not dying (or not dying quickly) and someone believes it would be better if he or she did, generally because the patient is perceived as having an unacceptably low "quality of life" or as imposing burdens on others." (usccb)

    she still lives, brain damage or no, she is still there, heart, mind, body, and soul.
     
  12. DeathStar1977

    DeathStar1977 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2003
    JF

    If Congress decides they don't like the way a certain case is going, they can it (not the overall subject mind you, but a specific case) out of the system and put it in a court that they hope will give a result more to their liking.

    Indeed.

    FID

    You've gotta be ****ing kidding me. Bush signed Schiavo's bill.

    Yes, because we all know Bush acted so urgently after the tsunami disaster.

    Its a good thing they passed the "Palm Sunday Compromise", it just shows that many of these people live so far up Pat Robertson's ass...
     
  13. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    she still lives, brain damage or no, she is still there, heart, mind, body, and soul.

    [face_laugh] ! That's a good one!
     
  14. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I'd like to know where this urgency is for real problems, like mental illness, homelessness and schools that are in poor shape around the nation (as in buildings that are falling apart, no computers, etc.).


    Others here seem to reel at the possibility that -- God forbid -- religious conservatives have influenced government, that Christians' votes actually do count.


    But if it served a different agenda (say a Democrat's agenda, instead of a Republican one), would you be so quick to say that people's votes actually counted?
     
  15. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Keeping an already dead woman alive is stupid. Care to argue otherwise, feel free to. But don't try to pretend that she'll ever get any better.

    Fire, let me put down my theological beliefs for a moment to humor you and assume (albeit momentarily) that the miraculous is completely out of the question.

    People in the advance stages of Alzheimer's won't get better, either, but that's not enough to argue that we should do absolutely nothing to care for them.

    And the poor woman IS NOT ALREADY DEAD. It's an absolute abuse of the word "dead" to apply it to her. She's breathing, and if she is fed, she will continue to breathe. Corpses don't do that.

    It's difficult to argue conclusively that she is "brain-dead," but it's absolutely impossible to assert that she's literally dead.


    (And saying that a living person is already dead is typically a way to express a desire to murder that person.)


    She isn't dead, it just seems that many people want to see her dead as quickly as possible -- including you, Fire -- and I cannot fathom why.


    EDIT: It seems to me, KW, that this is a real problem, at least to this woman's parents -- who are both willing and able to provide for her if her "husband" wasn't being so inhuman.
     
  16. Acolyte-Phikoz

    Acolyte-Phikoz Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2005
    this is from an interview on Larry King Live, where Michael Says that he did not know what Terri wanted:

    KING: Have you had any contact with the family today? This is a sad day all the way around, Michael. We know of your dispute.

    M. SCHIAVO: I've had no contact with them.

    KING: No contact at all?

    M. SCHIAVO: No.

    KING: Do you understand how they feel?

    M. SCHIAVO: Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want...

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/18/lkl.01.html
     
  17. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    She isn't living, she is exsisting.

    Ironic that people can die due to lack of accessable health care.

    Texas has executed 340 people since 1982

    Florida 69 people since '79...

    We've executed 12 people in the last 3 months alone US wide...
     
  18. DeathStar1977

    DeathStar1977 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2003
    KW

    I'd like to know where this urgency is for real problems, like mental illness, homelessness and schools that are in poor shape around the nation (as in buildings that are falling apart, no computers, etc.).

    DB

    Ironic that people can die due to lack of accessable health care.

    Exactly.

    But hey, don't 'force' me to pay more taxes. I'll just wait until I can make a political issue out of it.
     
  19. DeathStar1977

    DeathStar1977 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2003
    I just heard on the radio that while Governor, Bush signed a law which allowed hospitals to end life support from patients if they consider the treatment to be nonbeneficial, even if the family protests.

    I think they said the law was called the Texas Futile Care Law.
     
  20. Acolyte-Phikoz

    Acolyte-Phikoz Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2005
    regardless of anything, lets go back to my post:

    M. SCHIAVO: Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want...

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/18/lkl.01.html

    he stated that he did not know what terri's wishes where. so there you have it, hands down evidence that this is murder and not her own wishes.
     
  21. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Fire, let me put down my theological beliefs for a moment to humor you and assume (albeit momentarily) that the miraculous is completely out of the question.

    People in the advance stages of Alzheimer's won't get better, either, but that's not enough to argue that we should do absolutely nothing to care for them.


    The difference is that people with alzheimer's can remain functioning and aware. In this case her brain's atrophied and has liquified in vital portions of her brain. The two are not the same. One acts through protein build up and the other is because of 15 years of inactivity.

    And the poor woman IS NOT ALREADY DEAD. It's an absolute abuse of the word "dead" to apply it to her. She's breathing, and if she is fed, she will continue to breathe. Corpses don't do that.

    She is dead, for all intents and purposes. Who she was is never going to return, and neither will she ever get up and walk again. She requires a feeding aparatus to remain living. If she showed some form of awareness other than reflex movements (which her parents used to build this case) then I could see the point, she's not dead yet. But her CT scans say otherwise. True her frontal lobe is still there, but the right and left hemispheres of her brain are no longer connected. She's sustained severe ireparable damage to her temporal, parietal, and it appears that parts of her occipital (sp?) lobe is damaged as well. I've also noticed that her brain is shrinking. Face it, she may not be clinically dead, but from an awareness and conscious standpoint she is dead.

    It's difficult to argue conclusively that she is "brain-dead," but it's absolutely impossible to assert that she's literally dead.

    I'm not arguing she's literally dead, or what we consider to be dead.

    (And saying that a living person is already dead is typically a way to express a desire to murder that person.)

    Good cheapshot. No, a desire for murder would be me saying, "KILL THAT ****ING ****!" No, I'm going by what's been presented to me and saying she is dead.

    She isn't dead, it just seems that many people want to see her dead as quickly as possible -- including you, Fire -- and I cannot fathom why.

    Are you daft? Do you really not understand why people are saying she shouldn't be kept on life support?
     
  22. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Breezy, tell me what crime she's committed? Was she tried before a jury of her peers, convicted, and allowed to appeal?

    It's not hypocritical for people to believe that those who have been given due process and have been convicted of a heinous crime deserve death while trying to preserve the life of someone who has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to deserve to die.

    But it is hypocritical for those who think we should spare no dollar and no avenue of appeal to prevent an execution to so thoroughly desire this woman's death.


    I'm not sure it's true that people in this country die from lack of access to health care. Emergency rooms turn away no one.

    But while you and KW may be right in the basic point that those who can help improve education and health care should be passionate about doing so, the fact that you care about health care in broad terms does not mitigate the fact that it seems you think this woman ought to die from starvation or dehydration.
     
  23. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    I saw some blog posts about that Texas law, DS1977. If you want me to, I can probably dig them back up.

     
  24. DeathStar1977

    DeathStar1977 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2003
    JF

    Sure, at your convenience of course. :)

    I'd be interested to know what the law was, and if what I heard was indeed correct.
     
  25. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    I just heard on the radio that while Governor, Bush signed a law which allowed hospitals to end life support from patients if they consider the treatment to be nonbeneficial, even if the family protests.

    I think they said the law was called the Texas Futile Care Law.


    Waddaya know, something good did come from Texas.
     
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