Everybody who's read "Dark Journey" disscus it here! (Spoilers)

Luke was paralysed in Conquest by competing forces which he was trying to deal with, without dismissing any of them. He realised his error in Rebirth and acted on that realisation in Star By Star.

It has to be said: The Vong's use of refugee ships against Coruscant's shields do have an analogical link to 11th September 2001, though not deliberate, no one expected that event to happen so it could not be the allegorically referred to, could it?

As to the posts, all very interesting and thought provoking.

I have a copy, review to follow here...

It was purchaed from that Yank invader Borders...

Jedi Ben

 

Hey Jedi Ben!

Your thoughts triggered another thought from me.

I also thought that the YV tactic you described in SBS of using hostages against the Coruscant shields had direct parallels to the Yuuzhan Vong warriors using Chazrach reptoid shock troops on Dantooine.

I realize we're talking about a 3 dimensional strategy (Coruscant/space) vs a 2 dimensional strategy of warfare (Dantooine/ground) - but I still see an extrapolation from the same basic principals.

In both cases, the YV were using "expendible" "soldiers/hostages/slaves" to occupy, distract and hopefully deplete the infidel resources. On Dantooine, the Warrior Caste was using Chazrach to attack the infidels and also "eat up" the enemies' return fire. At Coruscant, the Warrior Caste again was using hostages to attack the Coruscant shields, while at the same time, forcing the NR to attack the hostages to prevent further damage to those shields.

Anyway, if anyone understands what I'm talking about, well . . . I'm using some die hard continuity connections and speculations in to the YV Psych!

 

but what's the point to using refugees and Charzarch? I mean, obviously, it gives the Vong some advantage, but on the other hand, if they have to use refugees and captives, it means they really don't have that great of numbers. It's been shown that things are wearing down for the Vong, their ships, their technology, maybe even their replacements parts (Tsavong Lah's arm). Alright, so this is fairly obvious. Does it mean that victory against the Vong will be more easily come by? Will the slaves they've taken in combination with the Shamed Ones be able to overpower the Vong by sheer numbers?

 

The basic principle is the same Ana and it fits with the Vong philosophy that they are the highest lifeorm and thus empowered to use other, lesser lifeforms any way they see fit, to accomplish any end.

As for the slaves and Shamed Ones, a combination rebellion would require the Shamed Ones to get hold of the means of controlling the calcification that the Vong use to restrain their slaves. Without that the slaves would be unable to rise up, given what we know of the calcified restraints.

As to the point, you may have it correct that the Vong's resources are not as great as they seem.

Maybe the Vong were ejected from their home galaxy for causing too much trouble, forced to sail the intergalactic void they headed for the nearest galaxy. A millennia on they are desperate, but their beliefs do not lead to compromise, instead a brutal campaign is waged, motivated by fear of extinction if they fail.

Jedi Ben

 

JACEN SOLO!!!
They just dumpped him in the middle of nowhere, there's no way he's dead, it's too significant. When the hell are they going to go rescue him!?!

 

everyone thinks he's dead, save Han and Leia. Who's going to save him?

 

He'll have to save himself. I hope he's come to terms with this aggression issue of his.

 

this wasn't a dark journey.

they should rename the book Semi-Partially-Dim Journey

 

Lol, I agree. It really wasn't the dark evil journey that was hinted at in the title, but then... I didn't suspect that it would be so I guess it's okay.

 

I was a bit disappointed with the title, too. Very little came of Jaina's brush with darkness. Throught the whole book, I thought Ta'a Chume would manipulate Jaina into fighting and killing Teneniel Djo. Teneniel's death was too easy.

But I really liked the fact that everyone, not just Jaina, was perfectly in-character.

 

But I really liked the fact that everyone, not just Jaina, was perfectly in-character.


I think Luke and Mara were out of character. They just seem cold, and like their kid is the only important thing in the galaxy, and don't even seem to notice anything else.

Is this what it's like to have kids? I hope I don't turn into a complete moron when I have one!

 

I was disappointed by DJ. In a lot of ways. To me there just didn't seem to be that much to it. the best parallel to this is like the two Dean Koontz books "Fear Nothing" and "Seize the Night". Fear nothing did nothing more than set up the situations for Seize the Night. Seems the same way with DJ. Just feels to me like a filler book to get more money while they put out the next one.

One of my biggest disappointments was the lack of Mara and Luke being in it. Maybe I'm just a romantic at heart, but ever since Balance Point I've come to enjoy their little domestic scenes more than anything else in the books.

Until DJ came out, I really didn't care who Jaina ended up with. After reading it, however... I truly believe she should wind up with Zekk. Remember his talk with Tenel Ka on the Trickster? Pages 136-139 to be exact. In those 3 pages he shows more caring for Jaina than any other character in the series. Real caring. That's the sort of feelings that a relationship should be based on. Seems the only thing she sees in Jag is just physical attraction. 99% of relationships based on nothing more than that fail horribly. Real love is almost entirely based on trust, communication, and understanding. Jaina doesn't really know enough about Jag to be in love. She'll wind up with Jag though. Oh well..

As far as Teneniel Djo goes... I thought she was portrayed well in the books. Her marriage was failing, her fleet had been all but destroyed at Fondor, and the resulting Force backlash from that many deaths had caused her to lose her child. My ex-wife was in much the same condition Teneniel was after she miscarried. Not quite as bad, but she'd just sit on the couch staring off into space for hours. Teneniel's reaction what had happened was very realistic, from my personal experiences anyway.

Then there's Kyp. A character I truly despise. He seemed to be wishy washy throughout the book. Until you stop to think about him, that is. He's still the same as he's always been. He's using Jaina. Again. He thinks she's the only Solo child left, and as such she's his best chance for finding the deeper understanding of the Force he's looking for. When viewed from that perspective, his wishy washiness fits. He's doing what he thinks is best at any given time to push Jaina towards this goal. He's still the same lying, manipulative, Dark sider he's always been. Hopefully soon some Vong will kill him and put the galaxy out of it's misery.

Just my thoughts.

 

Poor Kyp. He just can't catch a break.

 

Want to know why I despise Kyp, Lianna? It's really very simple. I'll explain.

I've never really liked him, but the Edge of Victory 2 book pushed dislike into active hatred. In that book he manipulated Jaina into helping hi convince the NR that the Vong worldship under constuction was actually a superweapon. Why does that make me hate him? Glad you asked. By destroying that worldship he condemned likely hundreds of thousands of slaves, vong kids, vong elderly (if they have any), Shamed Ones, and whoever else is on those worldships that are on the verge of failing to a long and hard death. Either from starvation, dehydration, slowly freezing to death as their heat bleeds out into the void of space, or a combination of these factors. We have a word for those who make war on the innocents like Kyp did (He admitted that was what he was doing!). We call them "terrorists". It's right there in black and white. That's what he is. That's why I wold really like to see him go.

He's also a Dark Sider. Look at any other person who's crossed over and come back. Zekk, Luke, Kam... They're all much more wary of it than your average Jedi. They do everything in their power to avoid it. Kyp, on the other hand, just doesn't seem to care one way or the other wether he's crossing over again or not.

Between what he did with the Sun Crusher and his destrucion of the Vong worldship... he's probably killed more people that Vader and Palpatine combined. I'll throw a party when I read of his demise.

 

Hey, Hey, Hey, I didn't mean to start an arguement. I know Kyp has done some wrong things in the past but as of DJ he seems to be making a change. I think that people are allowed to change. I've always liked Kyp's character for mostly a literary purpose. I never liked what he did. I felt just as strongly as you do that they were wrong, but I also saw potential in Kyp for change and that was what I was always rooting for. Now it looks like that is going to happen.

 

Kyp's destruction of the worldship was the right thing to do. You show no mercy for a enemy that has killed hundreds of thousands of your people, and has show no mercy to your civilians. If their going to kill your innocents then you wipe everyone of them from your galaxy

 

Wanted to chime in with my brief review here . . .

Rating: 5/10

{ For comparison:
Vector Prime 8
DT I: Onslaught 5
DT II: Ruin 8
AoC I: Hero's Trial 10
AoC II: Jedi Eclipse 7
Balance Point 9
EoV I: Conquest 8
EoV II: Rebirth 5
Star by Star 9 }

I never connected with this novel - a personal fault I suppose. When I read a novel I want to feel like I'm there. This never happened in Dark Journey. I felt details of the battle and surroundings were sacrificed in order to progress the story efficiently and methodically.

I understand this is a series and certain constraints exist, but the whole time I'm reading this novel, I'm waiting for something to really capture me. And then the novel ended.

With the last two paperback novels - Rebirth and now Dark Journey - anyone else feel they're holding back in favor of a few cheap thrills? Rebirth seemed disjoint whereas Dark Journey appears to bridge a gap in the series - nothing more, nothing less.

I'll end with some positives. From early rumors, it appeared the most significant result coming out of DJ is where Jaina's relationships stand. I was glad to find this was not the case and, at the same time, interested in those relationships now. Interactions between Jaina & Kyp and Jaina & Jag were a pleasant surprise. Plenty of emotional depth to Jaina's character here which commands a second reading. I found Jaina both heroic and villainous. Leia however is the highlight for the second NJO book in a row for me.

 

Presently up to p.180 or so, thoughts so far...

Do the Vong have any responsibility for their actions? Kyp did not kill the Vong that died elsewhere, those Vong died due to their leaders policy. It was quite within the rights of the NR to hit a Vong shipyard.

The supposed manipulation of Jaina. This is idiotic. It is known that the Jedi Mind trick only works on the weak minded but are told Jaina is nothing of the sort. We have the example of Exar Kun deluding Jedi but he was using the dark side of the Force. Kyp seems to be exceptionally good at it but even so, that does not get around the strong will limitation. My conclusion is that Jaina could have seen through Kyp's trick from the beginning had she wished to. she did not, she wanted to hit the Vong and she did not care how. Then, later, she developes a conscience for Vong. It was not murder, it was war, war is legitmised, sanctioned, utterly permissible murder.

Where does Jaina get let off? Kyp apparently did this, he did that, since whe did Jaina have no mind of her own? no free will?

What is it with Leia? She claims Kyp turned her daughter and others into murderers. What kind of Civil War did this woman experience with the Empire? It must have been an airy fairy, aristocratic game, with each abiding by stupid rules of 'honour', or has Leia simply blanked the horors that wr sometimes demands? How is hitting the Vong shipyard at Sernpidal different from Jaina's previous killing of Vong?

It irritates me intensely. As to the plot thus far: Jaina is a royal pain whose fall becomes very easy to understand. Pragmatic, unintrospective; a lethal combination for dark side temptation. Pragmatism says use whatever works, a lack of reflection ensures no self criticism and checking to ensure one is acting correctly. As to where the debating got her brothers, the answer is better understanding of the Force than she will ever have due to her self-inflicted ignorance.

The Hapes plot is picked up well and explains why it was left hanging after JE. The full effects of the Centerpoint fiasco only magnifies the big mystery of why Luke ever let the Jedi brothers take charge of it. Although I've never been that sympathetic to the Hapans due to the fact that their matriarchal viewpoint, with its in-built sexism, seems to be permitted and not criticised while the Empire routinely gets in the neck for being anti-alien.

The Chiss are well done and it was a delight to see Baron Fel again, his usual icy yet caring self. It seems like a foundation is being laid for an offensive involving Chiss, Hapes, Jedi, NR and Empire; which while worhwhile can be accused of being predictable but Stover and Williams will probably send the plot on a curve or two later on.

Han is probably the best character, who is perhaps the only one who understands Kyp and what drives him. Unlike Mara Jade, whose character improves to exactly zero degree, Han seems far more capable of being both firm and forgiving. He will put Jaina back in line, a great scene only weakened by Leia supporting Jaina, but also forgive. He knows the other option is not worthwhile. Luke is oddly quiescent and seems a mirror of Mara, which he shuld not be. It was Luke who forgave and saved Kyp, nor did he prevent Kyp doing what he did so to be harsh to him seems cruel, which is out of character for Luke.

It looks increasingly likely the Vong's power levels match Rebirth, with lines spread thin which they are desperately trying to keep secret. This makes Star By Star's events to be a gigantic gamble, bt why? Bcause the Vong's resources were always very limited. On the one hand they had a fleet of 1000+ capital ships and support, but those ships are dying and falling apart. Thus the drive to establish coralskipper nurseries and shipwombs, one of which got blasted.

The likelihood of my ever liking Jaina recedes ever further but to her credit Elaine Cunnigham executes the story well, with good all round characterization and action. Anakin's funeral being a highlight.

The link to SBS works wel

 

Without getting into the in-depth analysis some of you have (wow, don't your fingers get sore?), here's my thoughts on DJ:

I really enjoyed this book, as much as SbS and VP (my other two favorite NJO titles). But I'll concede that the only reason I liked it so much is that Jaina is my favorite character. If I wasn't a fan of hers, I think I would've been bored out of my mind.

I liked the fact that Jaina's character was finally developed, the way Jacen was in BP, and Anakin in Conquest and Rebirth. After the first three novels in the NJO, Jaina shunted off into the background.

I can't explain what I find so interesting about her. Maybe the best explanation is that she seems to combine some of the best traits of both her brothers. It seems they're setting her up to have a major role in the remainder of the NJO, and I really hope she does.

 

Review Part II:

Jaina only goes downhill, acts like an immature little kid whebever Jagged Fel says anything to her. He tends to behighly polite in conduct, which Jaina is probably threatened by. She is incredibly insecure, looking to find strength in acts of violence and tortute.

She lies all over the place. Sends pilots on suicide missions while claiming Kyp ordered them. Apparently Kyp deceived her so she figures it's OK, as if!

For any who hoped Kyp would get some credit in DJ for his acts, forget it. It is clear, despite Cunningham's efforts, Kyp is slated by the Powers That Be to be 'bad guy/jerk/villain'. He gets it from everyone, with the Sernpidal controversy being repeated until it becomes nauseous.

There is also the idea that Kyp did not know there were boundaries to the philosophy of end justifying the means. I would maintain he did. He knew the boundaries instinctly, he knew not to walk on the dark side, never mind enter it. He saw a way to be more aggressive without being dark and...he is publicly slammed for doing so. With Luke inactive in JE and paralysed, albeit with some reason as his and Kyp's positions are not the same, Kyp saw it fell to him to take action. He may not appreciate the political intricacies of Luke's position, but then it's took Luke a fair bit of time and he's a decade or so older than Kyp!

I would argue that Kyp has always respected Luke, even if e disagreed with him or was exasperated by him. Kyp's flaw is not understanding Luke's ambition: luke is not content with fighting the Vong, luke wants to solve the Vong problem, deal with the Nr, with the anti-Jedi sentiment and reform the Council. Kyp is willing to work on fighting the Vong and that's it, Luke sees the bigger picture but has taken time to work out the way to create it. Not that you get this impression from the texts.

Ta Chume plays the part of bitch queen from hell who escapes punishment adequately. Fel commands the forces during the battle.

Jaina apparently resolves to stop walking in the dark side. That's all, she has yet to recognise the depth of her sins. they go beyond both those of Luke and Kyp's dark side trips. Neither Luke nor Kyp tortured people with help from the SW equivelent of Dr Mengele. Nor did they send people on suicide missions. Unlike Jaina both Luke and Kyp recognised their errors for what they were. Nor did they go around being verbally abusive to people left right and centre as Jaina does.

Jaina does recognise the error that got her into trouble, love for those close to her. in Luke and Kyp's case, it was love for the galaxy and its people that led them down the dark path. The likelihood of her apologising to anyone is remote, given the track record of EU in regard to female characters.

The space battle at the end was a confused and botched affair. As for Octa Ramis, she remains the over emotional fool she has been shown as all along, from her first apearance in Onslaught and is manifestly unsuited to war.

One screw up is the Jedi base is still in business when it was discovered and evacated by the Jedi in SBS. It was why the Errant Venture was present at the battle of Coruscant. Scratch that then.

One nce touch at the end was Kyp mentioning a Jedi meeting called by Luke, who included Jag Fel in the attendees, causing Kyp to wonder if a Jedi offensive is on the cards. I'd hope so.

I am very hopeful for Aaron allston's work, despite being less than happy withy DJ, I doubt that unlike her brothers Jaina will ever win my affection at the rate she's going but it could happen in HB4. Possibly.

Responses to Other Posts:

Vergere: I only found Jaina to be vilainous and gloryseeking, while Leia was mostly cold. This was a shame as I'd heard good things abot Leia's portrayal.

CTF: Problem is Jaina only really began to resolve her problems in the last 5 pages of DJ. Jacen took care of his in BP, while Anakin resolved his in EOV1 and acted on that resolution in EOV2 and SBS. Both became far more likable characers as a result. Jaina isn'

 

I have something to say to Howlrunner. You're saying that Kyp is a "terrorist" for destroying the ship with all the YV babies. Although you do have a point about taking action against the innocent, how do you know those YV babies weren't going to be part of a future battle against the NR? Those kids could've been in training to learn how to be warriors. I'm just bringing this up. I despise Kyp also, but before you start calling characters "terrorists", just think of both sides to the argument.

 

Kyp did not kill the Vong kids, they died because their leaders left them in rotting worldships rather than transfer them to a safer environment. Apparently they planed to transfer them instead to a new worldship. Kyp destroyed that worldship. The primary consequence of that was the destruction of a major part of the Sernpidal shipyard, that is what Kyp is responsible for. He isn't responsibl for the Vong's lack of caring for their kids, resulting in their deaths aboard an old worldship the Vong refused to remove the kids from.

Are the Vong not responsible for any of their actions? Who started the war in the first place? The Vong. Kyp's action was defensive, it was justified and legitimate. And before anyone starts talking about killing innocents, wake up and smell the coffee: It has always happened in war and always will:

In WW2 Us and Brit bomber crews destoyed the whole of Germany's towns and cities, killing civilians by design. Same goes for Japan.

In Vietnam US B-52 dropped tons of bombs and they were not fussy about what got hit, where do you think the term 'carpet-bombing' came from?

In Kosovo, to put pressure on the Serbs, NATO hit power plants, targets that could be classed as civilian along with critical bridges, to disrupt Serb troop movements.

That's the reality of war, instead of the idealised notion that around 75% of the posters here seem to have, that wr is civilised. It's not.

Jedi Ben

 

I don't really want to get into a debate about Kyp but there is one thing that I feel I must clarify for those who keep saying that he destroyed a ship full of Vong children. No where in Rebirth did it say that that worldship had children on it. All it said was that by the time they built a new one thier children would die. What Kyp did was place a choice in front of the Vong. It forced them to make a decision as to how to expend thier resources. In warfare or on the homefront. If the Vong chose to expend it in warfare then the death of thier children were on thier own hands. I don't agree with attacking civilian targets, in fact, I don't agree with warfare at all and I find it amusing that people have told chosen to dellude themselves with fairy tales that you can place rules on war. If it were possible to do so then there would be no war at all.

 

originally posted by Jedi Ben
"Problem is Jaina only really began to resolve her problems in the last 5 pages of DJ. Jacen took care of his in BP, while Anakin resolved his in EOV1 and acted on that resolution in EOV2 and SBS. Both became far more likable characers as a result. Jaina isn't there yet, she's started back but she isn't a likable character for me. She may yet become so."

JB, I can't disagree with you there. DJ is definetely NOT a book that would make you like Jaina if you didn't already. But as a fan of hers since the beginning of the NJO, I just really enjoyed having her finally be the main focus of a book.

I think she will continue to resolve the issues she dealt with in DJ, and become an even stronger character because of it.

I can't completely agree with you about Jacen. I think the only thing he decided in BP was that it was okay to use the Force - sometimes. (Argh, this kid's driving me nuts!) Seems to me that all he's done is go back to being the same wishy-washy philosopher that we saw at the beginning of VP.

 

No, Jacen has learnt from his experiences. He was wiling to recognise the rightness of what both his uncle and father told him, even if it took him a bit of time.

I just don't see Jacen as being a warrior, he should have never been in a frontline role. Like Cilghal or Kenth Hamner he shuld have been in a support role. But that seems abhorrent to his adolescent lust for glory, even though he knows better, whch landed him in trouble.

I don't really understand why Jacen keeps getting missions, even volunteering for them when he is not a warrior. He knows by now war is not glorious, which he has known all along but not accepted. So why do it? Possibly because it seemed right, intellectualy and emotionally.

I agree his progress is frustrating but the kid is improving.

Jedi Ben