"Everything is going as planned". Does that line spell doom for the Sith?

It seems like whenever a Sith Lord says this line something goes wrong. I think that if the Sith weren't so cocky they could defeat the Jedi.

What do you guys think?

 

Overconfidence? Yes. Definitely. However, you have to remember that when Palpatine first says this line, everything was going as planned. And ultimately, everything worked out in one way or another: the Republic was transformed into the Empire, the Jedi Order was decimated, Anakin Skywalker was now Darth Vader, and the galaxy lauded Palpatine as a hero. The second time around was a completely different story. I would imagine that yes, when Palpatine says the line, everything was going as he had foreseen. But, his overconfidence led him astray, leading him to believe that Luke Skywalker was corruptible and his plan for the Alliance's destruction was infallible. So, its kind of 50/50.

 

Yeah, things did go according to plan for a while, and then they fell apart. Again, it's a flip of the coin on success, because these plans end up failing later on.

 

I always got the feeling that it was hyperbole - at least in part. He did foresee somethings - but not to the extent he made it seem, imo. But I think by saying it, he made those around him believe he had foreseen everything exactly as it was.

 

I agree. And another strength of Palpatine's, besides foreseeing some things and correctly predicting the results of actions, was the ability to quickly adapt to change and make the best of the situation at hand... to take advantage of it and keep things working to his advantage. This ability, combined with often being right in the first place, made it seem true when he said things like that... and therefore people would tend to think, "wow, this guy's always right".

 

I agree. His foresight was matched by his adaptability. In the end, he was unable to foresee that someone could turn back from the dark. He wasn't the only one to misread this, though.

 

I think you're referring to Yoda and Ben.

 

Not sure if Gary is referring to Yoda and Obi-Wan, but I think he may be.

I would agree with that, and it is pretty ironic. Palpatine on one side, and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the other, actually agreed with each other in their thinking that someone (Anakin/Vader in this case) would or could never turn back from the dark side.

When Anakin turned to the dark side, Palpatine thought "he turned... mission accomplished... done." Yoda and Obi-Wan thought, "he turned... he's lost... forget about him being redeemed."

When Anakin turned back from the dark side, Palpatine thought "this can't be happening!" Yoda and Obi-Wan thought, "is this happening? Was Luke right?"

 

Yes, I did mean those two. Sorry about vagueness! Seemed like it was standard Jedi teaching up until Luke's time. Pretty revolutionary that Luke.

 

Anytime anyone says that, something goes wrong. It's not just limited to the Sith.

 

With all due respect, there's no clear indicator that Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader. They use words like confront, defeat, and destroy. Confront and defeat don't necessarily mean kill; and given Obi-Wan's somewhat...unusual...translation of "murder", one can say they don't mean kill when they use "destroy", either.

 

The implication is a bit stronger in Ben's case, based on his reaction to Luke saying "I can't kill my own father". But it is true that Ben and Yoda themselves use words other than kill. It's similar to the Jedi Temple scene in ROTS between Yoda and Obi-Wan: "kill if necessary" rather than "kill no matter what happens". Obi-Wan says he cannot kill Anakin, and Yoda doesn't correct Obi-Wan's impression that he may have to do just that.

 

Yeah-that's just how Luke is taking Ben's words. Obi-Wan was initially opposed to killing Vader as well in ROTS for personal reasons, and left him alive after their duel was over as well, specifically thinking that he'd let the will of the Force handle it.

It's far from concrete that Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Luke killing Vader was the only way to defeat him.

I just think assuming Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to off Vader isn't really supported. I mean, they hardly mention Vader during Luke's training, outside of using him as an example of how not to be, and specifically urge Luke not to confront him violently in TESB. Obi-Wan only mentions Vader as being the man who killed Luke's father, and leaves it at that. He certainly doesn't urge Luke to take vengeance or anything.

 

They seem convinced that his returning from the dark side is highly unlikely, Ben more so than Yoda perhaps, but then we also have Yoda's line about the dark path dominating your destiny.

 

I know, and Yoda was arguably right about that-Vader's death is primarily due to his turning to the Dark Side-if he'd stayed Jedi, he presumably could have protected himself from Palpatine's lightning. As it was, he turned Sith, lost limbs and acquired machinery that would obviously get fried by Force Lightning in a heartbeat, and died as a result when he attacked Palpatine.

Their statements about Vader are too ambiguity-filled to really come down and say "they intended for Luke to kill him." Additionally, if their goal really was turning Luke into a weapon, then why is the spiritual aspect of Luke's training so heavily emphasized in TESB? There were scenes planned that showed Luke learning how to use his lightsabre effectively, but they were practically all nixed in favor of Yoda's philosophical scenes, a few scenes of Luke lifting rocks and learning to believe in himself, and finally-a scene that specifically works as a warning against killing Vader in the cave. A scene where Yoda tells Luke he doesn't need weapons, no less.

 

Yes, although they don't actually say that he must be killed, they certainly give a strong impression that they
don't believe that he can return from the dark. The dark side didn't, after all, forever dominate Anakin's destiny as Yoda had suggested it must.

 

Actually, I'm not totally clear about what in my post prompted this point about Obi-Wan and Yoda not necessarily wanting Luke to kill Vader; my main point was about them thinking that Vader could not be redeemed, which I think the movies do support. Maybe killing him was implied as a necessity in that view (that he could not be redeemed) if the Sith were to be defeated by Luke, but again that was not my main point.

At any rate, I tend to agree that it is not clearly stated that they feel Luke must kill Vader, but I do think the strongest suggestion that they might think that is contained in the dialogue already mentioned in this thread: Luke: "I can't kill my own father." Obi-Wan: "Then the emperor has already won."

 

I tend to take that as Obi-Wan saying "You need to be be ready to kill him if you have to." I mean, Obi-Wan could have just walked down and cut his head off on Mustafar if he thought Vader absolutely had to be killed.

 

I agree that Obi-Wan probably meant "You need to be be ready to kill him if you have to." But as far as comparing his mindset in the OT to his mindset at the end of ROTS, things have probably changed for Obi-Wan in that twenty-plus years. He's had time to think about it and view it from a less emotional perspective; he was emotionally drained and feeling like he was at one of the lowest points of his life when he left Anakin on the lava riverbank. Also, although I think Obi-Wan decided that all he could do at that point was leave Anakin's fate to the will of the Force, I also think he assumed that Anakin would die there soon after he walked away.

 

But none of that's shown on-screen, or even in the EU. There's no indication that Obi-Wan thinks he was wrong to not kill him.

Simplest answer FTW.

 

None of what's not shown on screen?

Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that Obi-Wan thinks he was wrong to not kill Anakin, although it still seems kind of moot anyway because he had probably thought Anakin would die there. I also don't think Obi-Wan regrets the way he felt on Mustafar either. I just meant that Obi-Wan had a more objective viewpoint on it all at that later point, which actually ties into him probably meaning that Luke should be prepared to kill Vader if necessary.

 

...Then what are we discussing? We agree.

 

I guess we do... but it's been fun determining that.

 

....Stop winking at me.

 

Sorry.