Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jun 22, 2006.

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  1. Oro_Orbis Jedi Knight

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    You mean belief that the force has no light and dark? It probably dosent - its just how people use it.
  2. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

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    Some clarification...


    Here's the quotation from Evil Never Dies I was referring to in this statement:

    "These barbarous practices were accepted [by the Sith race] not as contrary or antagonistic to life, but integral to it. War was quite literally a concept on par with peace or serenity; conceptually, the Sith people did not or could not differentiate one state from the other. There was, ultimately, only existence."

    I wouldn't call this even the Sith species' philosophy, but it's pre-philosophy. Nearly every religion and in fact every ordered system of beliefs strives toward a concept of oneness, with multiplicity usually explained as a kind misperception. Here the Sith race has intuitively or pre-consciously attained oneness, circumventing not only Abrahamic dualism but the trap/game of logic in general. You could say they're presented as a race of true Taoists (daojia), philosophically. This is likely an impossible position to evolve, but it's feasibility is also essentially impossible to disprove. As I see it, the loftiest goal of fiction is to explore the impossible or an approximation of it in order to expand our imaginations.

    As a whole, likely post-King Adas (who is something like the first self-conscious Sith... again, probably technically impossibly) the Sith tend to be obsessed with power, though individuals and groups vary significantly from one another. Darth Ruin was a solipsist. Lord Kaan was a social darwinist. Millennial and the Prophets were mystics. The Jensaarai are something like accidental post-modernists (which is thoroughly post-modern). The Sorcerers of Tund as I envisioned them would've been philosophical skeptics.

    Lumiya in Legacy of the Force is arguably a kind of deconstructionist, though depending on how her character is ultimately handled, she may turn out to only be a sophist (a.k.a. The Chewbacca Defense).

    In any case, the original Sith pre-King Adas you could say were utterly intuitive. Though they committed what we think of as barbarous acts, without a concept of barbarism (which is to say evil), these things were not looked on as evil, merely living. Pain and pleasure were two sides of the same coin, and not only was there no coin, but because there was no coin, the Sith couldn't even think, "There is no coin."

    ...And somebody's head just exploded.
  3. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

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  4. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Isn't that a Chewbacca Defense in itself...? o_O

    It looks as though contention between competing rulers is a part of early Sith culture - I suppose you could argue that this led to a "my Sith Lord right or wrong" social setup, a nationalism that saw struggle and suffering as useful and heroic things (nice Nazi ideological parallels here); when the idea of Sith unity came about, this became an empire-wide doctrine...

    So the Sith are the original Space Nazis?

    - The Imperial Ewok
  5. DarthMane2 Force Ghost

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    Sep 20, 2003
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    Abel what is your reason for not including the Sith offer to the Mandalorians to fight hte Republic during the years before the Mandalorian Wars?

    Not that it matters, but I was hoping for this event to finally be jotted done, because Canderous only mentions it in passing. In fact I have only got him to say it to me once.

    Were you told not to put it in the Article, did you forget, did you not have time?
  6. Charlii Jedi Knight

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    May 16, 2005
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    A question about the images used. Where is the image on the Sith (species) from? I can't remember seeing it in the comics. Also, the image accompanying the Dark Underlord tale. Is the supposed to be the Underlord himself? Where is that from? I guess these weren't original pieces, since I could identify all the other pictures.


    /Charlii
  7. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    The Massassi Sith image is from the Darkside Sourcebook which, before this, was one of the best sources of Sith info.

    As a whole, likely post-King Adas (who is something like the first self-conscious Sith... again, probably technically impossibly) the Sith tend to be obsessed with power, though individuals and groups vary significantly from one another. Darth Ruin was a solipsist. Lord Kaan was a social darwinist. Millennial and the Prophets were mystics. The Jensaarai are something like accidental post-modernists (which is thoroughly post-modern). The Sorcerers of Tund as I envisioned them would've been philosophical skeptics.

    I'd add Darth Bane in there as a dark-side fundamentalist. And Kopecz...ultimate pragmatist?
  8. Eyrezer Force Ghost

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    What is the Empire Reborn/Hethrir mention in the article?
  9. Sauron_18 Jedi Master

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    Not that I remember [face_tired]



    I was wondering if we'd ever seen any Rakatan Ships?? Whether in Kotor or elsewhere.....

    Other than Starforge that is.,,
  10. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

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    Just a mention of the events of Jedi Academy, that some the disciples of Ragnos were once with the Empire Reborn.
  11. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Did you just confirm that Blackhole is Shadowspawn? [face_batting]

    :oops: Thanks for the philosophy refresher there...
  12. Eyrezer Force Ghost

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    Thanks Lord_Hydronium. I saw on Wookieepedia that it was mentioned, but was unsure how much that meant. Cheers.
  13. Charlii Jedi Knight

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    Abel tried to make Blackhole and Shadowspawn the same person in some earlier work but it got rejected if I remember correctly...

    I read this just yesterday, and I must say it's really great! This is the article I've been waiting for in years!

    A question for you Abel: How did you envision the Sith's technological level just prior to the Rataka conflict? The article itself and your comments above seem to imply a rather primitive culture. "indroduced the invaders to his oversized axe" :p But afterwards they suddenly move their *capital* to Ziost, just like that, which impies a vastly different level in tech and influence. How do you see it?


    And, wait... Did you just confirm Nihilus status as a Dark Lord of the Sith??



    /Charlii
  14. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

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    Thanks JMM. You're one of the few people who knew how long I had this sucker in reserve, so I'm glad it lived up to expectations.

    Unfortunately, it's only available on Hyperspace and will probably remain that way for the forseeable future.

    I know the issue of Hyperspace and cash comes up often. All I can say is that everything I personally have done for Hyperspace would not exist if Hyperspace did not exist. For my part, I've done what I can to make any investment into a subscription worth while.

    Shoot.

    Sithspit definitely. I'd say, despite what Lundi says, Sithspawn is somewhat debatable given the existence of monsters called Sithspawn. He may just have been trying to be funny, and possibly qualified the statement in the very next sentence, which of course we never see.

    Good catch.

    A nod to the old X-Wing comics, in which a left-handed lanvarok is procured by one of the members of the Imperial tribunal.

    As I said, a true pleasure.

    A necessary retcon, given the fact Adas created a holocron. However, the Rakatans may not have called them holocrons, and in any case suggests perhaps why Sith holocrons differ from Jedi ones in both form and even function, as seen in TOTJ: The Sith War.

    Hmm...

    On the money. I figure the narcisisstic Reborn Emperor looks at the beliefs of most Force traditions, the Sith not excluded, as quaint by this point, including their terminology: everything is merely a means to power and everlasting dominion.

    Folks aren't missing much. Only a snippet in a sidebar in one of the Tapani books confirms that the Sith were once part of Mecrosa and were wiped out around the time of the Great Sith War. Everything else is basically new.

    Good question. This holocron is meant to be the same as the one in her "stats" section in The Emperor's Pawns.

    His race of origin was even more ambiguous before approvals: he was either Umbaran or Nagai. I imagine the Nagai ambiguity may have been cut due to the new Legacy comic Sith.

  15. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    Dec 12, 2003
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    Abel...in that case

    [image=http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/darksideart/Marauder.jpg]

    Belia Darzu?

    [face_praying]
  16. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

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    Bingo amigo.

    When isn't it?

    Interesting interpretation, T-Mac.

    Closer to a conceptually idealized version of Pre-Columbian Native Americans, IMO.

    I knew Drew Karpyshyn's Heritage of the Sith article was going to cover all the well-known EU Sith, though I didn't know to what extent. I mostly avoided discussing the movie Sith and the TOTJ/KOTOR era Sith in significant detail.

    Most of them images were taken from the Dark Side Sourcebook, save the ones of Flint and Lumiya which are from the Marvel Comics.

    I really like the illustration accompanying the Dark Underlord text, and think it was a highly appropriate choice. I'm inclined to say its certainly a version of the Dark Underlord.

    The first one definitely seems on the money. I'm looking forward to Path of Destruction.

    Just confirming my original intentions. :)

    Anytime, Ms. Coffee.

    Thanks Charlii! You and me both. :)

    Good question. I don't really have an answer. There are two things to keep in mind, though. First, the text following Adas death, i.e. where the relocation takes place, becomes very ambiguous as far as the amount of time that's passed. I think it's written so that the relocation could've happened anywhere in the next 20,000 or so years (in other words, up to the point of they're conquered by the Exiles). Lots of time for technology to evolve. Secondly, not only does Star Wars tend to mix impractically cool fantasy elements freely with sci-fi, but when a decent portion of your population has the capacity for magic, concepts of technological primitivism become very relative.

    Well, that he was at one point believed to be the last Dark Lord of the Sith.

    Take care,
    Abel
  17. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    I really like the illustration accompanying the Dark Underlord text, and think it was a highly appropriate choice. I'm inclined to say its certainly a version of the Dark Underlord.


    Appropriately, it's named in the Darkside Sourcebook art gallery as "Dark Side Spirit".

    Fits your description of the Underlord.... [face_peace]

    Speaking of such...

    Darth Rivan and his "Darkstaff"?

    [image=http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/darksideart/Devotee.jpg]
  18. Oro_Orbis Jedi Knight

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    Thanks, that was very enlightening - and very well written :)

    Just to clarify, where do you think the Sith and Jedi orders differ most?

    Jedi philosophy presumably encompasses some form of nihilism, scepticism and 'acceptance' too - so is it mearly the social Darwinism of the Sith Code that differentiates the Jedi and Sith?

    If the Sith mearly started off with a different cultural context in which violence was not a social taboo - then presumably as they became an interstellar power, they would have had interaction with species who differed in this respect - and eventually mingled with the Dark Jedi, who had come from a culture that differed
  19. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    Some Darth Rivan related info I never noticed before from the Wizards.com "Sith Battlelords" page here.

    Such a creature has undergone a number of secret Sith rituals designed to bond the battlelord to his or her followers. Some small amount of information has leaked into public awareness about the battlelords, but the fact is that they were never created on any large scale. Darth Rivan did perfect the process but was betrayed by his apprentice before being able to create sufficient battlelords to build an army.

    Confirmation of his cause of death? :eek:

    Of course, I bet Abel spotted this ages ago... :oops:
  20. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    You're trying to make my head explode, aren't you, Mr. Peña...?

    I aim to please/amuse/confuse/subvert (delete as applicable)

    Am I allowed to overinterpret that remark? [face_mischief] :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
  21. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Just got my Hyperspace membership fixed, and read the article. Allow me a moment to recover from my nerdgasm :-B =P~
  22. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

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  23. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    No, I don't smoke :cool:



    Except for out of my ears as I ponder the ramifications this has for my RPG campaign :p
  24. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

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    Lord Garu appears in the rpg storyline at the end of the 1st edition to WOTC's Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game.

    I'm glad you liked it, CH. If you let the Lucasfilm folks know, it's likely you shall have more.

    This is a good candidate for endnotes. Gotta finish Grievous.

    thoughts I had when reading this thing:

    I posted a reply to this idea earlier. I think the films present us with the happily ever after ending, while the EU takes the "realistic" cyclical war route. Keep in mind that, in one form or another, the Sith view war/struggle as inevitable and even the natural state of affairs.

    Not quite, and the recent discussions on Sith philosophy serve to illuminate this point. Again, war is not necessarily an "evil" thing in the Sith paradigm, and as far as the original Sith species goes, evil doesn't even exist. I think that's very much in line with the views of the new Legacy of the Force views of the Sith.

    I think someone else here already had a crack at this. I'll elaborate on that timeline.

    Lots of new info on the Mecrosa and the Cleansing, particularly how the organization came to be infiltrated by Sith and how they were brought down by the Jedi.

    As for the Krath, again, I largely avoided the TOTJ era. If I ever do have a go at it, I'd probably like to incorporate elements from the priceless backpages of the initial printings of Dark Empire.
  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    Abel, the concept of the Sith seeing war as necessary as well to learn, evolve etc. is good, but do they have a goal, a final thing they are seeking? I mean not immortality, but something like balance, harmony for the Jedi. what do the sith intend? do they just want to keep the eternal war/peace circles principle, or do they use it to reach a different goal? if so, what might that be?

    I like the ying/yang analogy of them being the reforming part while Jedi are the traditionalists that want to keep things like they are. but there are so many ways to interpret and read star wars and all this that it ultimately depends on the reader/viewer on which interpretation is right or the one one prefers.

    there is no ultimate answer it seems.. wich thus returns me to the Potentium:

    Sith combine so many views and paths.. like Jedi are more than just one path, one philosophy. they are two groups, two orders... but within both, the same philosophies and traditions can be manifested in use for good, evil.. or something else. there are nihilistic jedi, nihilistic sith, etc. just f.e.
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