Evolution or Creation

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The Gatherer, Oct 28, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Thank you for the support, R2D2, Jesus RULEZ YA LIFE! Keep the Pride alive man.
  2. Simulation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Actually it's the other way around my friend, Evolutionists DON'T know 100% accuratly the history of the Earth and the Universe, they can only assume.

    Yes, we assumed based on evidence. Erm, what does creationism have?



    Because they don't have no time machine, and nobody lived long enough back then to write down on HOW it happened, accuratly. So Evolutionists can only assume and predict on what happened back then.

    Again we assume based on strong evidence. What does creation have?

    Of course they have fossils, land markings and such, but that doesn't 100% on how old these things are.

    You?re right; it?s not 100% correct. Scientists already knew that and assigned those +/- margins of error

    You don't see a Evolutionist Scientist dig in a fossil field and find a fossil that has a tag on it saying "65 billion years old".

    Wow, I didn?t know that! Amazing!

    However, there was one supernatural being who saw all, and that was the Almighty Lord. He's the ONLY one who saw all of time and even lived before time itself, he created TIME!

    I hope you put forth some evidence of this later

    He used man to write down, with His own Words to say what happened, when, how, why, and etc.

    At least that?s how the story goes?


    Some might say that "well that MIGHT be true, but it's still not scientific". Oh really, lets see hot shot. It's a KNOWN FACT that Creationists have MORE STABILE proof then do Evolutionists. Here are a few examples...


    Oh man, that?s good for a laugh

    A) Creationists have the Bible, that is 100% fact, and that it was writen by man who was Inspired and Used by God.

    I say it was written by a cult. My statement is equally if not more true than yours.

    B) The Big Bang couldn't have occured because before the Big Bang, there was no time, including NO Matter. But for something to evolve or be created, it has to at least have Matter to produce it. It's basically saying "Abra Cadabra" and BOOM! It's there, magic. But Evolution thought isn't based on supernatural powers, including magic. So I guess magic is out of the question. Which leads to "No explination on HOW the Big Bang can occur without Matter".
    Oh, what evidence do you have to explain what existed and what was happening prior to the big bang? None? Hmmm?


    D) There have been some cases on fossils (expecially dinosaur fossils) that prooved Creationism existed. For example, scientists at the University of Montana found T-rex bones that were not totally fossilized! The sections of the bones that were like fresh bone also contained what seemed to be blood cells. If these bones really were millions of years old, then the blood cells would have already totally disintegrated. Also, there shouldn't be "fresh" bone if it is really millions of years old.


    Lie, Refs?


    Also, a creation scientist found "fesh" frozen dinosaur bones in Alaska. Now even evolutionists would not argue that this deposit of bones had stayed frozen for the many millions of years since these dinosaurs supposedly died out. The bones were not fossilized! They should not be in this state if they really were millions of years old.


    Lie, refs


    AND, I forgot when it was, but it was a couple years ago or so, I saw it on a news channel (dont remember which one). They had something on about that scientists have found a actual dinosaur HEART. The evolutionist scientists proclaimed that it was some millions of years old (forgot the number). But creationist scientists disagreed because a heart that "Preserved" can't be that old. If it was, it would have been decintagrated.


    Lie, Refs

    E) God was there to observe and see EVEYRTHING, he created EVERYTHING. Unlike evolution, it didn't have any sort of being that lived before or with dinosaurs!

    Lie,
    Are you going to prove got exists at any point in this argument?

    ...There is far more proof, but half of it is not to my knowledge and the rest I don't feel like typing since this is the important st
  3. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    ROTFLMFAO

    I'm in pain from reading those "facts" :D

    God created...

    A) Earth, Space, Time and Light on day 1.

    B) Atmosphere on day 2.

    C) Dry Land and Plants on day 3.

    D) Sun, Moon and Stars on day 4.

    E) Sea Creatures and Birds on day 5.

    F) Land Animals and Man day 6.


    Hehehe...so, this totally subscribes to the notion that the sun and the stars orbit the Earth!! And also, that light existed before the sun :)

    You don't see a Evolutionist Scientist dig in a fossil field and find a fossil that has a tag on it saying "65 billion years old"

    You do actually! It's called carbon-14 dating :)
  4. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, carbon dating cannot be used on things older than about 50,000 years. The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,700 years so once something is older than about 50,000 years there is hardly any C14 left (so accurate dating is impossible).

    I think it is possible to radioactively date fossils using some other radioactive isotope though. :)

    (But then there is always the possibility that God put the fossils there with the appropriate radioactivity level to make us think they are that old... :p)
  5. Goldberry Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 4
    <<At least Creationists have the Pride, Honor, and Morals to say that what they do is Science, but is also Faith Based. Evolutionists live in denial, PEROID. >>

    *Laughs until she chokes* Oh my... Thank you... This is one of the funniest posts I've read in a long while - I needed that. [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  6. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    Edhel: Cool info! My knowledge of that process is sketchy at best :)

    Still, even 50,000 years is a shade older than creationists would have us believe!


    A) Earth, Space, Time and Light on day 1.

    B) Atmosphere on day 2.


    He spent a whole day on just the atmosphere? What a slacker! :D
  7. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    LOL Simulation, what bold words coming from your mouth, you saying "Lie, Ref" when I showed proof. How can you say it's a Lie if you don't got PROOF to say it's a lie? This is ridoclious.

    And for your information, they were TRUE events that happened (About the fresh dinosaur fossils and Dinosaur Heart).

    Why should I further waste my breath, if you already turned down most of the proof I mentioned? For all I know, if I state a review on how Dinosaurs couldn't have elolved into Birds. Then you will probally say thats a Lie as well.
  8. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Darth Gleng, you cant question God's ways and authority. There is probally another meaning behind that, He did it to symbolize the Week. Such as 6 days of work, and 1 day of rest (Sunday).
  9. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    I can question your gods authority when there isn't a shred of proof that either:

    a) he existed or
    b) anything he's supposed to have done actually happened

    Especially when science, which I expressly believe in, by it's very nature is based solely on observation and hard evidence.

    Oh, and I believe this is the story of the dinosaur heart you refer to.

    66 million years old is hardly 'fresh'.

    Edit: multiple typos :)
  10. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Gleng: I haven't studied carbon dating since school so I did a google search to refresh my memory ;)

    SSO_DarthVader_ if you are going to argue with a scientist about science then you have to do so according to their rules. The way scientists do things is to form theories and do experiments, or make observations. The results either support or do not support the theory (you can never truly PROOVE something, but you can say that all the evidence supports it). If you say something you have to cite evidence to support it. I am not calling you a liar but if you say you heard about these "fresh" fossils, then you have to say where you got the information from in order for it to be considered "proof".

    About the six days thing: there were two interesting points from earlier on in this thread:

    1. The Bible is translated from the Hebrew so there are certain things that get lost/distorted in the translation (e.g. the word for "day" can also mean "period of time").

    2. Assuming the Bible is the word of God then it must have been simplified in order for His people to understand it. To them, the Earth was the centre of the Universe so He maybe simplified the account of the Sun and stars so they could understand it better?
  11. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    1. There is proof that relates that there is a God. Such as people seeing spirits, angels and etc.

    2. He made The Global Flood, Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and etc.


    Well from my resources (which are in books, not the Bible) state it was a fresh heart. And that it wasn't fully fossilized.

    Gleng, how can you say Evolution is based on observation and hard facts? There is definatly one thing Evolution can NOT have observed or based hard facts on, if Evolution says Dinosaurs lived before man? How can they date how long Dinosaurs live if they don't have a fully accurate reading scale or technolagy to do so. They can only ASSUME. Assume isn't observing, assume isn't hard facts, assume is a belief and/or assumption.

    So before you say Evolution is fully based on observation and hard facts, don't forget to mention Assume. Creationism isn't all hard facts etheir, both have assumptions. Lets just leave it like that.

    And just as Evolutionists base there Faith on the events before man exsisted, Creationists base there Faith on what events happened during the early years of the Universe.

    Are Evolutionists the only ones that can say "We base our assumptions on our facts". And Creationists can't do the same thing? What hypocrits!
  12. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    I got my resources from these two books...

    1. "The Genesis Solution" writen by Ken Ham and Paul Taylor.

    2. "The Great Dinosaur Mystery SOLVED" writen by Ken Ham.

    ...and some of the small bits are from parts of the web and the Bible.
  13. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Evolution or creation, you cant have one without the other, can you?

    I've been thinking about this alot. For creation believers, it simple, God created us from the ashes and dust of the earth. BUT.....there has been some evolution since then too, physical as well as mental. A study of the height of American soldiers in the American Revolution War and a study of the height of soldiers in the Vietnam War, showed in 200 years the soldiers have grown about a foot on the average. Evolution, yes it is.

    For evolution believers its not so simple, we came from a big bang, then came from a single cell floating in the ocean, that became a fish, that became a lizard of somesort, that became a monkey that became a human, that became who we are. But regardless of this, somewhere deep in the past, there had to be some sort of creation, there are no ands ifs or buts about. The big bang for instance, the very substance that was made up of the explosion had to be created, there is no other explanation.

    I have also noticed (this part has been pointed out) that Creationist want evidence but cant provide any. And alot of of evolutionist's don't believe in a god but many that I have met and on these forums believe there are other life in the galaxy, usually saying "I cant believe all this is just for us" if your willing to believe in aliens, then how come you wont admit to a higher life form? After all you havent seen God but you havent seen an alien either? So when discussing Evolution and Creation it becomes a religous thing, and just like everybody else on these boards I dont have any "evidence" of my theories or the existance of a supernatural being, but fact is Creation and Evolution go hand to hand, and there is no other explanation for the absolute beginnings other than creation.
  14. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "1. There is proof that relates that there is a God. Such as people seeing spirits, angels and etc."

    If unsubstantiated stories constitute "proof," then there's ample proof for dragons, mermaids and leprechauns.

    "2. He made The Global Flood, Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and etc."

    Saying it doesn't make it so. Show some evidence.
  15. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Well pointed out Jedi_Xen. That is basically thee only thing I agree with evolution. Because back then people were smaller then they are now (average height). I just don't believe that there was a Big Bang and all, for the same reason that you stated.

    And it does make me wonder how Evolutionists can put faith that there might be other life in the Universe, but can't put faith into God.


    Giest, the proof of that is in the Bible. It's not fiction, it's basically a acient History Book. Scientists used Darwin's book of "Origin of Species", and they still use that as the foundation of Evolution. The Bible is the foundation of Creationism.

    Also about the translation problem about Genesis. When they translated the Bible from Hebrew to English, they DID do it RIGHT, here's why...


    The biblical record in Genesis states that God made all things in six days (the Hebrew word for day in Genesis "1 yom", as used here with a number and the phrase "evening and morning" means an ordinary solar day.

    ...this is in the "The Great Dinosaur Mystery SOLVED" writen by Ken Ham.
  16. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    1. There is proof that relates that there is a God. Such as people seeing spirits, angels and etc.

    Not proof of god I'm afraid. Supposing someone sees a spirit, this does not automatically equate to the existance of a god.

    2. He made The Global Flood, Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and etc.

    Heresay and ancient books (with no other evidence to back them up) do not equal proof. Please post some proof, that's all I'm asking for.

    And I think your point about an accurate reading scale has just been answered by Edhel.

    The Short Proof of Evolution

    The best evidences of evolution

    The Illogic of a Creationist Argument

    That's just a couple of minutes worth from google. My wife's a biologist, give me some more time and I'll recite chapters from all the text books in the house.

    I'm not saying that evolotion/big-bang theory/accretion theory/whatever thoery is definitive, I'm just saying that at least there's truckloads of proof to back them up.

    So far, you have provided none.
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Giest, the proof of that is in the Bible. It's not fiction, it's basically a acient History Book."

    All you're telling me is that the Bible is true because the Bible is true. It's circular logic.
  18. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    "And it does make me wonder how Evolutionists can put faith that there might be other life in the Universe, but can't put faith into God."

    I'm confused...that's a bit of a non-sequiter (sp?)

    All available evidence points toward the fact that, if conditions are right for living organisms, then life can potentially exist. Coupled with the fact that there are countless trillions of stars, most of which will have a system of planets. The possibility that our planet is the only one which can support life is statisticly insane!

    The fact that I can't put faith into god? There has never in my whole entire life that anything that can remotely equate to evidence has ever been put forward to me about the existance of god.

    If you wish to believe in god, then that's up to you. Obviously your circumstances have been different and you've arrived at your own conclusions. That's fine! I'm not going to tell people what to believe. All I'm doing is forwarding an argument based on scientific evidence.

    If your beliefs make you happy then I'm glad for you. At the end of the day, happiness is all that really matters.

    (I just wanted that to be known :) )
  19. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Same thing with Evolutionists. For example...

    ~~{A Case of circular reasoning}~~

    Student: "How old is this fossil?"

    Doctor: "Well, since it was found in a Cambrian rock layer, it must be about 600 million years old."

    Student: "How do you know the Cambrian rock layer is 600 million years old?"

    Doctor: "Oh, thats easy. We know how old the Cambrian rocks are because of the fossils they contain."

    Student: "Oh, I see! The fossils date the rocks, and the rocks date the fossils. That sounds like thinking in a circle to me!"

    Comic brought to you by "A Beka Book" a ministry of Pensacola Christian College.


    ...So look who's talkin now lol. Here is a link about the flaws of Evolution, and scientific proof. http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/cartoon.htm
  20. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    I see your point Gleng, but still. Evolutionists have not prooved HOW the Big Bang happened. The reason....it's impossible. Because how could the Big Bang occured if there was nothing at ALL before it to produce it, there was no matter before the Big Bang, therefore you can't make something out of pure nothing. Only a Supernatural force/being has the ability to do something like that.



    PS: Giest, Dragons did exsist back then. I believe Dragons exsisted back before, and right after the flood, but died off shortly after.

    And to show a sign of the global Flood, the Grand Canyon is the perfect example of the massive effects of this global flood.
  21. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    Doctor: "Oh, thats easy. We know how old the Cambrian rocks are because of the fossils they contain."

    DATING ROCK LAYERS

    First the rock layers must be dated, by using some of the following methods:
    Using radio-isotope analysis of igneous rocks - For example, when lava cools, it has no lead content and it captures radioactive Uranium (U-235). Over time, the unstable radioactive Uranium decays into its daughter, Lead-207, at a constant, known rate (its half-life). By comparing the relative proportion of Uranium-235 and Lead-207, the age of the igneous rock can be determined. There are other radioactive elements that can be useful in this type of analysis.

    Determining the magnetism of the rocks - The Earth's magnetic field has changed over geologic time, leaving different magnetic fields in rocks from different geological eras.

    Noting the position of rocks - Sedimentary rock layers (strata) are formed episodically as earth is deposited horizontally over time. Newer layers are formed on top of older layers, pressurizing them into rocks. Paleontologists can estimate the amount of time that has passed since the stratum containing the fossil was formed. Generally, deeper rocks and fossils are older than those found above them.


    Evidence please, not a cartoon.
  22. SSO_DarthVader_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    I posted a URL for you to check out.
  23. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    "Evolutionists have not prooved HOW the Big Bang happened. The reason....it's impossible."

    Aside from the fact that evolutionists don't study astrophysics, this is very true! It's one of the problems that people are working toward.

    "Because how could the Big Bang occured if there was nothing at ALL before it to produce it, there was no matter before the Big Bang, therefore you can't make something out of pure nothing."

    Also true! Although superstring theory goes a short way to explain that our universe could have "ballooned" out from another universe (although that doesn't explain how the first one got there, but first things first, eh!).

    "Only a Supernatural force/being has the ability to do something like that."

    Proove it ;)
  24. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Everytime i read posts like this i get reminded of the movie Contact. If you have seen it, you will remember that at the end everyone questions what Jodi Foster's character sees, even though it was true, and then finally she realizes what Mathew McConaghey tells her, and the same thing is happening here, just because you don't have your proof of Someone's existence doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I am sure that Osama Bin Laden doesn't now of my existence, and because i have never wanted to post proof of my existence to him doesn't mean that i don't exist. The same thing could be applied to God. But all of that is from your point of view and mine.

    Now as far as carbon dating, i was read a book some time ago when it was explaining the innacuracy of carbon dating (note should be taken that it was not a creationists explanation, it was a pure science book), although i am not very knowledgeable in that area since i haven't studied it in a long time i will try to explain what i remember.

    It basically said, that since carbon dating is a fairly new science, it is inaccurate, because scientists measure the life of something by using a point of reference, so they date something under a controlled condition, so they let something age 2 years and measure the decay and then they use that as a point of reference in order to test fossils. The problem here is that it has something to do with light and the speed of light, but the problem this scientists says, is that the speed of light has been slowing down troughout the passage of time, therefore any calcuation is inaccurate, and since the speed has slowed down, then all those fossils are VERY MUCH younger than what is calculated through that testing.

    I'm sorry i don't remember the book, but i will research it and read up on it so i can be more clear on what i am saying.
  25. Darth Gleng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 3
    Just had a look through that link (sorry, didn't see it until you pointed it out :) )

    It does offer some well thought out arguments, but it only seems to highlight the potential flaws in evolution, it doesn't offer any alternative solution. I.e. I still don't see any proof of creationism.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.