Evolution or Creation

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by George15, Mar 12, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Double_Sting Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    Well, there's a little bit of land called Kashmir that should be basic knowledge for anyone who has passed Freshmen level World History. Muslims and Hindus have killed over this land for 100's of years, and they obviously are not restrained by their religions.

    I'm from India and I'm willing to bet that you can't tell me the real reason for this conflict without looking it up on the internet.
  2. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Thanks cydonia! It was inevitable that it would come up. ;)
  3. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Forgot to comment on this.

    *Yawn. Just because beliefs overlap doesn't prove originality. Polytheism was started LONG before Hinduism. Judaism and Christianity began Monotheism.....that's original.

    Doesn't overlap. More like Christianity ripped it off as Hinduism is older than any of Abrahamic religions. Once again you show your ignorance. Hinduism isn't polytheistic. There is one god and many incarnations or avatars of the one god.

    Vedanta Society


    Is Hinduism polytheistic?

    Hinduism believes in one God -- Brahman. Brahman is that infinite, undivided, unchanging reality behind all that we experience, behind the entire universe. Deities, or gods and goddesses, represent the highest manifestation of Brahman that humans can comprehend. An avatar or divine incarnation of God is the highest manifestation in human form. Hinduism believes that God manifests in human form from time to time throughout history to reestablish righteousness.


    Sounds familiar, eh?
  4. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Ender, if my argument is so old.................why haven't you said anything about primordial soup.

    If it is such an old argument, an answer should be easy. That post has been there for about 2 hours, and still no one has the answer.

    If you can't answer that questions, you can throw your whole theory out the window. How can you argue how life has changed when you don't even know how life started?
  5. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Hinduism has millions of gods.

    Who knows which is the right god? Who knows which god is the right form?

    "God must have a big mouth." Your lack of the basic concept of God still amazes me. He encompasses the whole universe! He is omnipotent, omnipowerful, and omnipresent!



    Hinduism is a continuously evolving religion and is not founded by a particular person or prophet. Central to Christianity are the words of Jesus Christ described by witnesses.

    Christianity has a central organization called church to control and regulate the activity of Christians. Hinduism does not have a centrally controlled set up.

    Hinduism does not believe in conversion of people. In the Bhagavad gita Lord Krishna preaches not to follow another's dharma however superior it may be for it would hamper ones spiritual progress.

    Hinduism does not believe in Judgment Day. According to Hinduism man is a victim of his own karma and the laws of dharma judge him continuously. Christianity believes in a final judgment day.

    Both however believe in the eventual destruction of the world.

    Hindus believe in the incarnation of God, but Christians believe in the son of God. Hindus worship many gods and goddesses, but Christians do not.

    Hindus believe in the Mother Goddess. Catholic Christians venerate Mary.

    Hindus believe in karma and suffering and redemption through ones own actions and surrender to God. Christians believe in sin and redemption through refuge in Christ.

    Christianity believes in one heaven ruled by God and one hell ruled by a devil. Hinduism believes in a gigantic star studded universe consisting of innumerable worlds, heavens and hells, created by one Supreme God and left to the care and control of several gods and goddesses. The dark world is populated by demonic forces who play a negative role according to the divine plan.

    Hindus believe in a supreme God Brahman, who is formless, universal, controller of many heavens and many worlds, without a beginning and without an end and with infinite powers and energies whom no one knows definitely. Christian believe in a Supreme Father and Holy ghost.

    Hinduism believes that the universe was created billions of years ago and that the earth is just one world in a series of thousands of worlds. Christianity believes that the world was created a few thousand years ago and that earth is the center of the universe.

    Hinduism believes in the physical evolution of life. Christianity does not.

    Hinduism advocates belief in prayers, surrender, egolessness, forgiveness, compassion, unconditional love, harmlessness and inner purity. So does Christianity.



    Hinduism faces some grave problems that need serious attention: A) It lacks an ideological face. B) It lacks leadership, its elites are becoming illiterate about their spiritual heritage and history. C) It is weak organizationally. It has no recognized centers where it could take stock of its sorry situation and think of remedial measures. D) Great poverty has overtaken its religious institutions; temples are in a state of near-destitution. Priests and scholars (acharyas) are badly neglected and have no prestige. E) It is badly divided into castes and denominations. Once when Hinduism was spiritual vibrant, these divisions expressed natural and healthy diversity; now in its present sick state, they are used by its enemies for its disintegration. Election-politics is utilized for the dismemberment of the Hindu society. F) Hinduism is ceasing to be a practising religion. Awareness of a larger God-life is becoming dim; worship, sadhana, japa, spiritual meditation and reflection are fast declining. In short, it is a situation painful for the lovers of Hinduism and pleasing for its enemies.




    "The composition of the great epic poem, the Bhagavad-Gita, sometime between the second century B.C. and the third century A.D. marks the end of the period of classical Hinduism. The Bhagavad-Gita is found within the text of a much longer poem and is probably the most highly esteemed scripture of Hinduism. I
  6. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Ha ha. They WEREN'T Christians! Every religion goes through a corruption at least once in its existence! Look at modern day Islam....compare it to the grand Islam before the 1700's.

    People are not perfect, no matter what religion they belong to.
  7. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "Your lack of the basic concept of God still amazes me."

    Your lack of the basic concept of sarcasm still amazes me. ;)

    "Hindus are told to be loyal to their duties as warriors and to kill!"

    No, warriors are told to be loyal to their duties as warriors. You gonna tell a soldier he ain't allowed to kill someone in battle?

    "I AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ANSWER ME ON MY POST ABOUT PRIMORDIAL SOUP!"

    Would somebody hurry up and answer this guy? I'd look it up myself but I gotta go to bed.
  8. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    There's an awesome song by Chic, "Soup For One", i believe it was a movie theme song from an early 80s movie. You can still hear it occasionaly with the bassline sampled in modern R&B lazy pop.

    Oh, PRIMORDIAL soup. Sorry. Can't help you there.
  9. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    And that is your interpretation of sarcasm? Please.

    There you have it - As a Hindu warrior, he is to kill his enemy.

    If I was a Christian soldier, I am not instructed by my religion to kill my enemy. I am instructed by my government to kill my enemy.

    Two very different things.....




    Evidence for a Young Earth:

    Here are a dozen natural phenomena which conflict with the evolutionary idea that the universe is billions of years old. The numbers I list below in bold print (often millions of years) are maximum possible ages set by each process, not the actual ages. The numbers in italics are the ages required by evolutionary theory for each item. The point is that the maximum possible ages are always much less than the required evolutionary ages, while the biblical age (6,000 to 10,000 years) always fits comfortably within the maximum possible ages. Thus the following items are evidence against the evolutionary time scale and for the biblical time scale.

    Much more young-world evidence exists, but I have chosen these items for brevity and simplicity. Some of the items on this list can be reconciled with an old universe only by making a series of improbable and unproven assumptions; others can fit in only with a young universe. The list starts with distant astronomic phenomena and works its way down to earth, ending with everyday facts.

    1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.



    The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape.1

    Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this "the winding-up dilemma," which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same "winding-up" dilemma also applies to other galaxies.

    For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the dilemma has been a complex theory called "density waves."1 The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and lately has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope's discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the "Whirlpool" galaxy, M51.2

    2. Comets disintegrate too quickly.

    According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about 5 billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of 10,000 years.3

    Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical "Oort cloud" well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.4 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations.

    Lately, there has been much talk of the "Kuiper Belt," a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Even if some bodies of ice exist in that location, they would not really solve the evolutionists' problem, since according to evolutionary theory the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it.

    3. Not enough mud on the sea floor



    Each year, water and winds erode about 25 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean.5 This material accumulates as loose sediment (i.e., mud) on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of the mud is less than 400 meters.6

    The only way
  10. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    LOL

    At least someone else here can relax.


  11. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Peez, what are you talking about? We have posted our evidence. Somehow, our evidence is incorrect and you are instantly right!

    All you have posted is half-assed arguments against evolution, not evidence for creationism. Remember, arguing against something doesn't automatically make your theory(lol) the correct one.

    I haven't addressed the "primordial soup" because it's not evolution. It's abiogeneisis. You seem to be missing the point that god could've created the universe billions of yrs ago and allowed evolution to take its course. Many Christian biologists believe this. They don't take the bible literally.

    Scientists are still trying to work out what the first self-replicators were as they didn't leave an imprint. It is believed the self-replicators evolved into RNA.


    More info can be found here:

    Abiogenesis info

    Scientists consider this the best hypothesis right now. I'm not sure what this has to do with invalidating observable evolution?

    Any time you'd like to present evidence for creationism go right ahead. We're still waiting.

    God speaking the universe into being is sure solid evidence.
  12. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "And that is your interpretation of sarcasm? Please."

    I sense some hostility. I've tried to be polite to you, you can try to be polite to me :)

    (ok now I really am going to bed. probably. :p )
  13. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    About the "Chaos Theory."

    ON CHAOS THEORY AND THE STABILITY OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM
    Ordinarily, a physical system is a system in which future states
    can be predicted from prior states. But not all physical systems
    exhibit such predictability. The term "chaos theory" refers to a
    theory of unpredictable behavior arising in a system that obeys
    deterministic laws but exhibits unpredictability. The essential
    idea is that in certain systems small perturbations may produce a
    cascade of larger perturbations, so that eventually the behavior
    of such systems cannot be predicted from prior states no matter
    if the systems appear simple and obey deterministic laws.
    ... ... Adam Frank (University of Rochester, US

    ---------------------------
    Evolutionists use this theory against the Creationist arguments that use the Laws of Thermodynamics.

    In Chaos Theory, there is no organized pattern, and objects are unpredictably formed.

    If the universe does not contain a Creator or God (as in the Chaos Theory), how did scientific laws come about? Chaos does not result in order! If the universe "knew" only chaos, it could not create a stabilized pattern of laws.
  14. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry, I didn't know that was a joke. No offense taken, and I am sorry if I acted hostile.

    I'm kind of strung out here since I am answering many questions from many people. My questions still get no responses though......
  15. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Ender,

    Thanks for the input, but it could have done without the cussing. I still can't understand how my arguments are...ahem...."half-assed" when you and all the other evolutionists on this page have nothing to say on the subjects.

    If you have nothing to say.......how are my arguments weak if you have no argument to say against them?

    Everything that you have posted tonight I have addressed. You have addressed perhaps 5% of what I have posted. It doesn't seem like your ideas are very...ahem..."full-assed." :D

    If you are serious about most scientists believing the theory that "God created the universe and let evolution do its thing" is true, I am not really offended, and actually pretty happy.

    As long as there is an acknowledgement of God watching over the whole process, it is not all that offensive to me.

    Well if scientists are beginning to put God back in the picure....soon the tables will turn again....bwa ha ha.....and more and more of the Creationism theory will be thought to be fact, not fiction.

    :D

    'Nite

    -Fat_Fett


    P.S. - Hey Ender, here's a hint. If you swear more often in your posts, it will make you sound more intelligent! ;)
  16. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "As long as there is an acknowledgement of God watching over the whole process, it is not all that offensive to me."

    That kind of takes away the ace up the sleeve in the evolution argument, but let's not offend anyone. Yabba Dabba Doo! ;)


  17. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "If you are serious about most scientists believing the theory that "God created the universe and let evolution do its thing" is true, I am not really offended, and actually pretty happy.

    As long as there is an acknowledgement of God watching over the whole process, it is not all that offensive to me.

    Well if scientists are beginning to put God back in the picure....soon the tables will turn again....bwa ha ha.....and more and more of the Creationism theory will be thought to be fact, not fiction."

    "God" doesn't necesarrily refer to the Christian God though, and creationism is exclusive to Christianity(at least the Genesis version of creation), so a belief in God doesn't necesarrily equal a beleif in creationism. I belive evolution to be the best theory on the subject, but I'm not an atheist.
  18. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Well put....

    Perhaps if I said "a belief in a Creator." (?)

    The main thing is, the universe is far to complex and beautiful to have happened by chance. Albert Einstein said that there had to be a "Brain" (as he called it) behind the developments of the universe.


    Dang Saint, we both need to get to bed. We keep posting. Now I'm really goin to bed....stupid school.

    L8r

    -Fat_Fett
  19. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    For your information, the Bible IS the religious book with the most fulfilled prophecies!

    And I take it you know this because you have read every other religious scripture on the planet and know just how many prophecies they made... which of course has nothing to do with evolution.

    If Hinduism has so many more completed prophecies than the Bible has (as you make it sound like it does), please tell me what they are, and how many more there are in the Hindu holy books than in the Bible!

    Thanks for proving my point... you were the one who brought up this asinine issue of prophecies, which, again, has nothing to do with proving or disproving evolution... or the fundamentals of creation (If creation already happened, then there's no empirical means by which you can prove to me that the prophecies were anything but statements written after the fact... if even that).

    I'm not taking your Evolution quotes and twisting them around and making a mockery of them!

    You're right, you're not. You're taking other references to evolutionary theory and... well, not understanding them at all.

    For some reason, you paraphrase and quote only parts of what we say in such a way that it makes you look better than you would if you actually used the genuine quote!

    And you're doing what? How exactly do your tangential rants about Jesus and how other religions, none of which you've actually studied or understood by your own admission of asking for scriptural references of which you yourself have no knowlege, prove Creationism?

    If you laugh at the Bible's prophecies, and want me to list the prophecies that came true.....I will list them.

    Actually, you're the one who started going on about religions. It might actually gain you more credibility to spend your time posting empirically testable evidence of Creationism.

    As to the question of why Moses allowed the slaughtering of women and children......If you are going to defend Hinduism, a religion which STILL encourages the killing of people of other religions....don't point your hypocritical finger at me.

    Excuse me? Did you ever read one page of Hindu scripture for yourself? Where precisely in the Hindu scriptures or in the Muslim scriptures does it say that either of them must kill each other? I would strongly advise you not to go in this direction. Like Double_Sting, my family is from India... I was born there. I am a Hindu and I know firsthand about the violence and I'd bet you $500,000 you don't have the slightest clue as to the origins of the violence between Hindus and Muslims... which has no basis in scripture or dogma (there is no Hindu dogma because there's no central "church" authority from which it is dictated).

    Hinduism, Islam, and scores of other religions still encourage the killings of other religious people (my dad should know, he has been a Pastor and a missionary for over 25 years!).

    Again, I'm a Hindu, not converted mind you. Hinduism has been my family's ethnic and religious heritage (and if you even begin to claim it's not an ethnicity and only a religion, that only furthers your ignorance of the subject... I don't come into your churches and tell you people what Christianity is and isn't.). I would wage my family's knowledge of Hinduism against your Christian father's... Many pastors have, in fact, asked my family to lecture on the subject of Hinduism, especially my own father... a scholar and a scientist who knows far more about Hinduism than any Pastor we've ever met. You care to tell these pastors they're idiots? Be my guest.

    Each Hindu holy book was not written over a span of over 1300 years!

    Well, since you don't know anything about Hindu scriptures and their vastness... you're guessing here... but, you're absolutely right. They weren't written over a span of 1300 years. They were written over a span of at least 4000 years. Furthermore, archaeologists will tell you that Indus Valley Civilizations populated prior to the Indo-Aryan migration Hindustan (
  20. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I think it's foolish to assume either side knows 100% truth. Scientists want to be proven wrong when possible, at least that's the sense i get. It's logical, if you aren't willing to be wrong once and in a while how can you fix the erroneous thinking that made you wrong in the first place? How would science progress if it were so stubborn?

    I don't see people who follow the bible story of genesis as willing to be wrong. They are never wrong, because it's god's word. But it's not fair to debate it with science, because it's not a fair argument! One side says they're pretty sure it's this way, but accept that in priniciple could all change tomorrow and a new theory could come along. With Bible Creationists, there's no way that would ever happen. It's impossible for them to be wrong.

    I don't think i'm making my point very well. But sometimes it seems like the Twighlight Zone when i see Evolution and Biblical Creation try to duke it out on equal terms.

    Square pegs in round holes? Is this the analogy i'm looking for? (cydonia's brain hurt. Not understand. Want glass of water.)
  21. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    It was NOT on a Christian program that I overheard that the Bible is the book with the most fulfilled prophecies. It was on (can't remember the name) the show on PAX with the guy from Law and Order hosting it.

    And we all know you should believe everything you see on television without question... especially when it's hosted by an actor. Hey, they had this program on Fox about the moon landing being a hoax... and I think it was hosted by that guy from the X-files. It must be true! Now I know why you fundamentalists think that it's really music's fault that kids commit suicide.


    [face_laugh]



  22. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Darth_SnowDog use Hindu voodoo mumbo-jumbo to conjure glass of water for Cydonia's hurt brain...

    Voodoo drain energy, me tired... need nookie with wife. Go bed. Ug!
  23. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Wow, Snowdog thanks for the counselling! You're right: I am a racist and so is my father and I confuse Indo-Aryan with Aryan and Jesus was a fraud and I kill abortionists, I am a Nazi, and I rape young women after I have eaten their non-Christian husbands, and you have died in a previous life. Please. Try to make a stronger argument by doing more than using these embarrasments that call themselves "Christians" to attempt making a bad stereotype of my beliefs.

    What are you gonna do, make me worship a cow and live in a country that is not blessed becuase they refuse to accept God's grace that is continually held out for them?
    Look what happened to Japan after WW II, after its people started accepting Christianity - God's grace extends to all, but not everyone reaches out for it.

    Did one of your dieties ever love its people SO much that it died for them, giving them eternal life? Tell me, where do I find that story in the four Vedas, or ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS TEXT?

    If you want to insult my religion, I am not afraid to speak my mind either.

    If you truly wanted me to get back on track of the discussion (which I had 2 hours ago), you shouldn't have paid attention to my "rants about Jesus."

    Obviously you think that I was just looking for attention. If you are thinking this way, why would you give me attention by responding to my claims?

    I want to know what you think about my post on Creationism and primordial soup.

    By showing that prophecies from the Bible come true, I am showing that it is a much more reliable source than any other religious book.

    I am still waiting for these Hindu prophecies that you told me about.
  24. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Did one of your dieties ever love its people SO much that it died for them, giving them eternal life? Tell me, where do I find that story in the four Vedas, or ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS TEXT?

    Are you familiar with mythology, or any of the ancient pagan myths that were told before Jesus' birth? If not, you should really look into it. It's a fascinating subject, and you just might find out some things you weren't expecting.

  25. Goldberry Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 4
    Fat Fett, I'm pretty sure you've just proven Snowdog's point - he wasn't saying that you were a cannabalistic rapist nazi like the people in the Crusades. You yourself claimed that the actions of a few terrorists show that his religion is evil. Snowdog's point is that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Of course there are good Christians, but there are also good Hindus, and good Muslims, and *gasp/shock* even good atheists! To defend a Christian monopoly on goodness by claiming that any Christians who have ever done anything bad weren't really Christians, and then attack all Hindus for the actions of a few, is just plain hypocritical. Don't take cheap shots at other people's religion if you don't want people to point out the uglier side of Christianity's history. This "my religion's better than yours" stuff is a sure recipe for riling people up, and it won't accomplish anything here except to convince everyone else that you're an arrogant, self-righteous young fool. You may not be, but you'll have to pull up your socks if you want to make a good impression.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.