Rumor Examiner.com Reports Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher returning as Luke and Leia in 'Star Wars VII'

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by gambit420, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    You have a lot of interesting thoughts and you make some very good points here, but let me ask you this: How often do Leia and Padme drive the action? Think about it. Because I am looking at this through the POV of a writer.

    Strong characters take actions and make decisions that drive the plot forward. Now Leia did have a few good plot-driving moments in the first movie. She puts the Death Star plans into R2, and records the message for Obi-Wan. Perhaps she even instructs R2 to get into the escape pod for Tatooine. Major props for that. She also has that wonderful moment when she grabs Luke's blaster and takes charge of her own rescue, directing them all into the garbage masher. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's pretty much it in terms of Leia driving the action forward in Ep 4. For the rest of the movie, she is reacting to, and going along with, things that the men initiate and decisions made by men.

    In ESB, we see Leia briefing the men before battle. But again, she is a cog in larger plot and we never see that she had anything to do with setting this battle in motion. For the rest of the movie, she is with Han and he is the one making all the decisions and initiating the action. She argues with him a lot, but she also basically goes along with what he wants to do. Until they get to Bespin when Lando and Vader become the ones to drive the plot forward.

    ROTJ? Well, she does rescue Han (and I'm pretty sure I read Leia had nothing to do with Han's rescue in the early drafts of the script), and she does choke Jabba -- after being a silent and sexy victim for a solid chunk of time. But other than that, she spends the bulk of the movie reacting to Han and Luke, reacting to decisions they make and things they do.

    It's harder for me to talk in depth about Padme, as I am very much an Original Trilogy kind of gal. I have seen all the PT films at least a couple of times, but I don't have them memorized like I do the OT. But honestly, I can't remember any instances where Padme drives the plot forward, other than by being the object of Anakin's adoration and by getting pregnant. If she does have some moments where she makes a decision or takes an action that drives the plot forward, please remind me.

    But the point is, the ladies get very very few of these plot-driving moments in comparison with the male characters. This puts them in the passive role, comparatively speaking. Being able to shoot a blaster well doesn't make up for that.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  2. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    I personally think its going to be a happy medium between the two. I think female lead character and the male lead character will be the sharing the focus of the next trilogy. Probably something similar to an Anikan/Obi-wan dynamic.

    My gut tells its probably going to be a male skywalker and a female solo. That would also add "symmetry" to what we have seen before:

    3 generations of Skywalker men/women and a third lead not connected to bloodline.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Feb 19, 2013
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  3. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Ideally, both. In the next trilogy I'd like to see a female lead who is not passive, occasionally gets to drive the plot forward, but who is also a fully-fleshed character -- complex and flawed.
  4. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    The female lead in the ensemble will more than likely be a Jedi of some sort, very sure she will get her action moments.
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  5. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    But if the two main characters are cousins, they can't have a romance. And you know Disney wants to shoehorn a romance in there somewhere.

    Hmmm. Maybe Lando has a daughter?
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  6. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Maybe, I don't know. I think its kinda strange to kinda keep it strictly offspring for the leads. I think Lando's kid would be better suited as a support character.

    The romance aspect could introduced support character. Doesn't have to be a lead persey.

    I've also been in the discussion before of having two female leads(out of a trinity) in a Star Wars movie. I just don't see that happening for the next trilogy(perhaps future films).

    I think a female Skywalker is at least a workable possibility, but two female leads seems like a pretty serious departure/bold move for a newly acquired franchise by Disney. Especially one that is mainly marketed/consumed by young boys.

    But I aint getting dragged into that conversation again. I will say as I have said before: I think the next trilogy have a female main character and a female support character. But its composition will still be the same "trinity" as before.

    Here is an idea: why don't we have an alien as a third lead character?
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Feb 19, 2013
  7. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

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    Sep 15, 2010
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    I have the same concern about commerce influencing art, but from a different perspective. I strongly agree with Ian McDiarmid's assessment of the Skywalker saga as the story of "Fathers and Sons" and I very much hope that the protagonist of the ST turns out to be a son for Luke, that we might witness this running theme played to it's dramatic conclusion.

    My very real fear is that the folks at LucasFilm and/or Disney could wind up with eyes the size of saucers, dollar signs where their pupils should be and say to themselves something to the effect of "You know, there's a massive untapped resource of young girls out there who are primed and ready for some attention. Just look at how that hip, young Ahsoka Tano turned into dollars for us and that was just in a cartoon!" - while ignoring the fundamental needs of the greater story. I would love to be wrong about this, too.

    Whether the motivation for a female lead is honorable (such as I believe yours is, Left_Bun) or a product of the bottom line, I'd honestly rather it wait for another story with a fresh start (we know that they're coming right around the corner), rather than potentially derailing such a vital theme of the "Episodes" series. This is not to say I'm not looking forward to a very strong "Jaina Solo" character (I am, indeed), but I'm very much in favor of a "Ben Skywalker" lead, whose dynamic with Luke can drive the plot.
    Last edited by TreborSabreon, Feb 19, 2013
  8. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    To Zuckuss (these quote thingies are driving me nuts):


    Well, we're operating in an information vacuum right now, and speculating about the new young leads -- so it's natural to wonder whose children these new characters might be. But I agree that at least one new main character won't be related to anybody.

    But I think it would be cool if a child of Lando was involved in a romance with a child of either Han and Leia, or Luke.

    While I certainly think a young woman will be amongst the main characters, I am still convinced that the main lead of the new films will be a young man. Probably the son of Han and Leia, or Luke. And since I am not at all sold on prediction that Luke is going to have children, that leaves Han and Leia's son as the most likely protagonist, IMHO. And no, not Jacen or Anakin.

    But predictions are made to be wrong and anything is possible.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  9. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    To Trebor:

    You're right -- we are coming at this from a completely different angle. On the first point, while I do agree that the OT is strongly about fathers and sons, I just don't see that in the PT at all. I mean, Anakin doesn't even have a father <insert eyeroll here> and he never even meets his son. We don't even see Anakin thinking or speculating about his future son. He's all about Padme, period. So I don't get how anybody can say the PT is a story about fathers and sons.

    As to the second point, while there is a vast commercial potential is marketing movies to young women (witness Titanic) I don't believe there is a snowball's chance in Mustafar that Disney will attempt to tap into that market for the ST. These movies will be targeted to young men.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  10. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Well they could go the brother sister angle again and have male/female solo if Luke remains celibate. Honestly, I think Luke will probably have a kid. These stories are a bit traditional in nature. The Skywalker name, I would think, would carry on(I could be wrong).

    The reason why I am saying that I think the dynamic of the next trilogy is based around the relationship between the male/female leads, is the original story treatments of 7-9. Granted, they probably have changed. But in those original story treatments the trilogy was the relationship of Luke Skywalker and his sister(not Leia). It would eventually culminate in the two characters facing off against the emperor.

    The idea of cousins makes the most logical sense as an easy plug in for that dynamic. Plus, its not an exact retread.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Feb 19, 2013
  11. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    To Zuckuss:

    The idea that the new trilogy needs to have a main character with the Skywalker name, as opposed to just Skywalker DNA, is the most compelling argument in favor of Luke having a child. I'm just still skeptical, mainly because it goes against everything I have heard Lucas say about the character of Luke in the years since ROTJ ended. But we'll see.

    You're right that having two main characters who are siblings, or even cousins, creates dramatic tension that the writers can exploit. That's a good point. We never really got to see Luke and Leia acting very sibling-y in the OT, since that pesky forbidden romance got in the way. So it would be nice to see some real family relationships between the characters in the ST.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  12. Game3525 Force Ghost

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    Jun 25, 2008
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    Honestly, if the Skywalker name is so important, just let Leia's kid carry the name then.

    She is after all a Skywalker.
  13. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Just a thought, perhaps Luke has an adopted kid?
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  14. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

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    No need for an 'eye roll' if you consider that Anakin's very lack of a father also plays to the theme of "Fathers and Sons," too (and very strongly). Just look at the effect upon Anakin's development as he bounces continually from one potential father figure (Qui-Gon) to the next (Obi-Wan), before finally submitting to the will of the figure who had Skywalker played from the start. Palpatine saw Anakin and his weaknesses coming from a mile away and I offer that had Skywalker been able to have a strong familial influence in his life, he may have been better equipped to deal with that snake oil salesman, Sidious.

    This doesn't even take into consideration the theory held by some that Plagueis and Palpatine created Anakin through midichlorian manipulation (thus becoming his 'father,' from a certain point-of-view) and the ramifications stemming from this. There was, indeed, plenty of attention given to the theme of fathers and sons throughout the PT. It was, of course, simply framed in a different way than the OT.
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  15. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Actually, Padme is the character who drives the entire plot of TPM. It is her dramatic question that must be answered before the film can come to an end (will she be able to drive the Trade Federation from her peaceful planet?) She is the character who decides to leave Naboo and seek the help of the Galactic Senate and when the Supreme Chancellor is revealed to be inept it is she who calls for his removal (clearly being manipulated by Palpatine but without her it would never happen.) It is she who then decides to go back to Naboo and free her people from the oppression of the Trade Federation. I would consider her the main character of TPM. In AOTC the plot revolves around discovering who is trying to assassinate her and so again a major part of the story is driven by her. In ROTS for obvious reasons the plot is driven by Anakin and I really wish the seeds of rebellion scenes could have been included but I agree with the poster who said she has some very strong character moments at the end. I really love Padme because she is one of the strongest and in the end most tragic characters I've seen on film.
    Last edited by Darth Chiznuk, Feb 19, 2013
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  16. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

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    I was going to say the same things about Padme (particularly regarding TPM). Thanks for saving me the time and stating things so well.
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  17. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    Trebor said:

    No need for an 'eye roll' if you consider that Anakin's very lack of a father also plays to the theme of "Fathers and Sons," too (and very strongly). Just look at the effect upon Anakin's development as he bounces continually from one potential father figure (Qui-Gon) to the next (Obi-Wan), before finally submitting to the will of the figure who had Skywalker played from the start. Palpatine saw Anakin and his weaknesses coming from a mile away and I offer that had Skywalker been able to have a strong familial influence in his life, he may have been better equipped to deal with that snake oil salesman, Sidious.

    This doesn't even take into consideration the theory held by some that Plagueis and Palpatine created Anakin through midichlorian manipulation (thus becoming his 'father,' from a certain point-of-view) and the ramifications stemming from this. There was, indeed, plenty of attention given to the theme of fathers and sons throughout the PT. It was, of course, simply framed in a different way than the OT.

    My reply:

    On this particular point, I couldn't disagree more. I think that is reading something into the movie that just isn't there. We never hear Anakin talk about not having a father, what it meant to him to grow up without a father, and we never see him searching for any kind of a father figure during these movies. It's a non-issue for him. From the start, Anakin's focus is on loving Padme, and on wanting to be a Jedi just for the sake of being a Jedi, being able to do good in the world, help his mother, and be powerful in general. Anakin doesn't want to become a Jedi so he can connect with his father in any way -- that's Luke's story.

    Nor do I see Obi-Wan as a father-figure for Anakin, certainly not after the first movie (where Anakin was after all just a boy). Because of Anakin's prodigious gifts, their relationship was much more equal than it was surrogate-father and son. I also don't see the daddy connection with Palpitine. What drew Anakin to Palpitine was power, period.

    And that theory is just a theory. It's not anywhere IN the actual movies. If it were -- if there were anything concrete to tell me that Anakin really missed not having a father or was actively looking for some kind of father-figure -- then I might be able to buy the argument that the PT is really about fathers and sons.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  18. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Darth Chiznuk said:

    Actually, Padme is the character who drives the entire plot of TPM. It is her dramatic question that must be answered before the film can come to an end (will she be able to drive the Trade Federation from her peaceful planet?) She is the character who decides to leave Naboo and seek the help of the Galactic Senate and when the Supreme Chancellor is revealed to be inept it is she who calls for his removal (clearly being manipulated by Palpatine but without her it would never happen.) It is she who then decides to go back to Naboo and free her people from the oppression of the Trade Federation. I would consider her the main character of TPM. In AOTC the plot revolves around discovering who is trying to assassinate her and so again a major part of the story is driven by her. In ROTS for obvious reasons the plot is driven by Anakin and I really wish the seeds of rebellion scenes could have been included but I agree with the poster who said she has some very strong character moments at the end. I really love Padme because she is one of the strongest and in the end most tragic characters I've seen on film.

    My reply:

    Well I have to admit that TPM is by far my least-favorite of all the SW films, and therefore the one I have seen the least. Like, one and maybe a half times, I think. So it's hard for me to address your points regarding that plot. Regarding AOTC, saying the plot revolves around an assassination attempt is not evidence of Padme driving the plot. That's like saying Anakin being in love with Padme makes her a plot-driving character. Yes, the plot is moving forward with these stories -- but they are things that happen TO her, not things she decides to make happen herself.

    I'm talking about the kind of plot advancement where a character makes a decision to do something, and then the plot moves forward as a direct consequence of that decision (even if it's not what the character originally intended). Examples: In Ep 4, Luke makes the decision to leave Tatooine and join the rebellion, he makes the decision to rescue the princess, he initiates the swing-across to escape from the stormtroopers, he makes the decision to turn off his targeting computer in the DS trench and trust the force.

    Now part of the reason he makes these decisions is because he thinks he is in love with Leia. But she's not initiating the action. Luke is. She is the object that he chases.

    I'll accept your arguments about Padme in TPM, but that is one movie out of six. And it probably has a lot to do with the fact that the real main character, Anakin, was still a very young child in that film.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    "So it's really about mothers and daughters and fathers and sons." - George Lucas
  20. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Just a thought, perhaps Luke has an adopted kid?

    Yeah, I had that thought too. Or maybe Shmi had some siblings or uncles and some distant Skywalker cousin turns up. But don't you think a lot of fans will be dissapointed if Luke doesn't have a biological son? Of course the hard-core fans don't just want Luke to have a son, they want it to be Ben Skywalker.
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  21. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Context please. When did he say this and about which movies specifically?

    And even if Lucas was specifically referencing the PT in that quote, it doesn't change the fact that I don't see any father-son dynamics in the actual plot and dialogue of the PT films. Where is it? I haven't watched the PT movies umpteen times, so I'll concede that I might be missing something. But I need to hear an actual plot point or line of dialogue that references fathers and sons -- not things that the fans are reading into the films.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    2005, and I think he's talking about the 6-film saga as it stood at that point ( otherwise throwing Padme into it doesn't really make sense ).
  23. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    OK, thanks. Honestly I'm still not seeing it -- not in the actual PT movies themselves, in the plot and the dialogue. But we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
  24. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I think Anakin has two father figures in the PT: the good father figure (Qui-Gon) and the bad father figure (Palpatine). Obi-Wan is more the brother who is forced to take on the responsibility of the child even though he is not ready. None of this is said out right but it doesn't need to because it is implied. You can see that Palpatine has a strong influence on Anakin not because he wants power (he clearly balks at the notion of him ruling the galaxy when Padme implies it) but because Anakin idolizes him like a son would a father. He confides in him and it is his downfall. We can only guess what the outcome would have been if the good father wouldn't have died.

    I agree that she is not the main character of AOTC so she has fewer plot driving moments than TPM but she still has a few. She is the one who tells Anakin where they are going to hide on Naboo and even when Anakin tries to intervene she becomes very firm with him (asserting her authority over him.) When Anakin wants to abandon his duty to rescue his mother I think the film makes the point that he is actually asking for Padme's consent and when she responds by saying that she'll go with him she's really giving him her approval of the mission and thus alleviates the burden on Anakin. And finally at the end it is she who makes the decision that it is okay for them to be together. These are only a few but they are vital plot driving moments IMO.
    Last edited by Darth Chiznuk, Feb 19, 2013
  25. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    Ack, I can't get these quote things to work. You said:

    I think Anakin has two father figures in the PT: the good father figure (Qui-Gon) and the bad father figure (Palpatine). Obi-Wan is more the brother who is forced to take on the responsibility of the child even though he is not ready. None of this is said out right but it doesn't need to because it is implied. You can see that Palpatine has a strong influence on Anakin not because he wants power (he clearly balks at the notion of him ruling the galaxy when Padme implies it) but because Anakin idolizes him like a son would a father. He confides in him and it is his downfall. We can only guess what the outcome would have been if the good father wouldn't have died.

    Me:

    Again, I've only seen the PT films a few times each, so it's difficult for me to have any real in-depth discussion of the PT. It still seems to me that a lot of this surrogate-father stuff is in the eye of the beholder and I'd still like to see an actual quote from Anakin referencing the fact that he didn't have a father and the effect this has had on his life. But it's clear you know the PT films much better than I do and have given this a great deal of thought. So in that sense, I'm waving the white flag. And the next time I watch AOTC or ROTS (not sure I can ever bring myself to watch TPM again), I'll think about what you've said.

    You:

    I agree that she is not the main character of AOTC so she has fewer plot driving moments than TPM but she still has a few. She is the one who tells Anakin where they are going to hide on Naboo and even when Anakin tries to intervene she becomes very firm with him (asserting her authority over him.) When Anakin wants to abandon his duty to rescue his mother I think the film makes the point that he is actually asking for Padme's consent and when she responds by saying that she'll go with him she's really giving him her approval of the mission and thus alleviates the burden on Anakin. And finally at the end it is she who makes the decision that it is okay for them to be together. These are only a few but they are vital plot driving moments IMO.

    Me:

    On the first example, very good point. On the last two examples, I can't agree however. Anakin won't move forward without Padme's permission, fine. But he was still the initiator in both cases. Especially with the romance. Much like with Han and Leia in the OT, the man is the pursuer and the woman initially resists. In fairness, the vast majority of movie romances follow this script. Of course the romance cannot really happen until the woman consents. Anakin may be a force-choking, youngling-killing psycho, but he's not a rapist and neither is Han. It takes two to tango as they say. But in both cases the man is still the one who sets the story in motion by deciding to pursue the woman.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Feb 19, 2013