Explain the unexplainable? Plot anamoly discussion

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Clone434, Jun 1, 2002.

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  1. DarthMaulX2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    In responce to anakin hating tatooine, heh, i would find watto's responce to hearing that anakin slaughtered an entire tuskin raider camp.
  2. Sometimey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 1
    Pope_Will said, "What I find more troubling is the nature of the Jedi Council"

    I agree with you, the nature of the Jedi council, of the Jedi order in general, does not seem to be as benevolent as one might first assume.

    The duty and commission of the Jedi is to maintain peace and order in the Republic. They dedicate their lives to this and in order to fulfill this commission completely, they do not form any attachments to anything outside of the Republic and the force. That's one reason why it is best for Jedi to be trained from infancy.

    Rescuing Shmi would not in any way have benefitted the Republic, in fact, it might have caused problems with the local merchants, farmers, etc. who own slaves or rely on them commercially. Perhaps like many countries in our galaxy :) (America being one), slavery played a large part in the planet Tatooine's economy. Abraham Lincoln did not go to war to free slaves but to preserve the Republic. Evils like slavery, or organized crime (the Hutts), or smuggling, etc., can be resolved by a system in its own time and in its own way (supposedly). If any of these things were causing problems for the Republic (like taxing the trade routes of a small insignificant planet), then the Jedi might get involved in some capacity.

    OTOH, wouldn't they have secured Shmi's release on strictly humanitarian grounds? After all, she did let them take her 9 year old son and only companion. They could have maintained Anakin's detachment from his mother while still helping her secure release just because they cared.

    When I saw the movie "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" this helped me to come to terms with ancient orders like the Jedi. Please bear with me. In that excellent movie there is an anciet warrior order who exist in addition to the armies of ancient China. These warriors were specially trained and fought valiantly, honorably and compassionately to help maintain order and peace in their country. That said, one of their greatest enemies arose in part because they did not always show this compassion and understanding on an individual, personal level.

    An evil woman who perpetrates many crimes, kills many innocent people and warps another innocent mind into following her was once just another girl with hopes and dreams. She thought she could be a warrior and wanted to join this ancient order. But the only way a woman could come into their temple was if she was their prostitute. And they used her for that but would never train her or share with her. I thought that was very wrong and shortsighted, yet it doesn't make her less evil or make them less honorable (particularly when they did fight and help free and protect people).

    It just introduces shades of grey. George Lucas made it clear to us with Qui Gonn's comment about freeing slaves and Obi Wan's lies in the OT that the Jedi aren't perfect, all-knowing or completely wise and benevolent. But the Republic needs them, as they will learn when the Jedi are gone.

    Thank you for your patience.
  3. YoYo1234 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    Ok I think everyone needs to think about this whole Anakin/Luke thing logically...

    Ok first of all, Darth Vader does not know he had a son... Can everyone agree on that? Or he knows but he doens't care...

    Anyway, no idea, there is a Son, why would he go out looking for one?

    Everyone agree that only the Emporer, Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Vader is a Skywalker? So why would the Empire be looking for a Skywalker when they don't even know who Darth Vader is???

    This talk about Beru saying he is like his father... Who says they know that Anakin became DARTH VADER???????????? Maybe just maybe, whoever delivered them Luke told them that Anakin died (as most people in the galaxy think)... (You guys really thought your funny with those Beru/Vader scenerios)

    Darth Vader doesn't find out he has a son until either the Emporer tells him or he finds out since a Skywalker destroyed the Death Star... Also why would the Emporer want to tell Anakin he has a son, that could lead to him being good again (which happens)

    Until the Emporer sees the oppurtunity to turn him evil, he is useless..

    Plus would you want the "Last Hope" in the galaxy to be given to just anyone? Owen Lars and Beru can be trusted and Obi-Wan can stay there just in case Darth Vader does come (wouldn't he sense him)?

    End result = everything makes sense...
  4. DJ_Disco_Steve Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 1
    I was just thinking that. Owen and Beru don't need to know the whole story. They don't get out that much, so they'd never find out.

    To them Anakin could just be loose-cannon irresponsible father who disappears off to who-knows where and never comes back. Which is why they're worried about luke leaving home.

    It'll be fine. And if GL doesn't care about X-wings and TIE fighters in Ep2 before they are invented, then who cares about plot inconsistencies anyway. At least they give us something to talk about.
  5. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    I think Obi-wan has a very, very slight suspicion that perhaps Mace or some other Jedi is up to something(which they aren't). In the case of Jango being there, and then in Geonosis, he probably thought it was Dooku trying to get hold of the Clone Army, but Yoda managed to commandeer them before Dooku could get them.


    Kefka, I think this is the best explanation I've heard so far. I'm still catching up with the posts though.
  6. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    It's simple. Anakin never knew he had kids, or he thinks Padme died before being able to give birth. If it's the latter, it gives more credence to Anakin coming to the conclusion that the Skywalker that blew up the Death Star is the son he thought had died along with his mother. It still works with the former explanation, but I like the latter more.


    Jedi Chikira,

    I don't think the latter works. If Padme dies close to Luke's birth, then Leia wouldn't remember her mom at all. But she does. I hope this hasn't already been said. I'm catching up still.
  7. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Also, Beru acts as if Luke being "like his father" is funny. Huh? Is Beru on paxil?



    ha, I almost choked. Also on Darth Schwarzennegar's comment. Very Good.


    Is there any reason Vader might actually know Luke is on Tatoine and choose to leave him there?
  8. SantoroSM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 1
    1. Obi-Wan is suspicious. He's grateful that the clones helped them, but his suspicion lead him to contact Yoda and Mace. He certainly was skeptical.

    2. Vader did not know he had kids. He feels the Force in Luke at the battle of Yavin, and then, obviously, the name of Luke Skywalker becomes famous for blowing up the Death Star across the galaxy, and he thinks, "Oh, well that makes sense." That's how he figures it out.
  9. MachinatingMachiavel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    I got another question. When Obi Wan goes to Kamino and learns that his former master ordered the production of the clone army, the prime minister alien guy calls his master cypher DX or something. I thought it was Qui Gon Jin - or is cypher just a handle of his?
  10. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    I think that Vader knows of Luke's existance, but does not give this information to Palpatine - he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor when he is older.

    The first time he senses Luke's presence is the Death Star run. He does not immediately sense it is Luke, but directly after makes the connection. Then he reveals himself to his son, tempting him to the Dark side.


    I don't think Vader is saving luke to overthrow the emperor. It was pretty tough for him to do so at the end of ROTJ, so I doubt it was in his plans for 20 years. Besides, I think your theory is internally inconsistent. He wasn't to turn luke, AND overthrow the emperor? How do they go together?
  11. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I don't know if this has been mentioned but here's one. How the hell did Yoda get to Kamino, assemble the clones, and get to Geonosis so fast?
  12. SantoroSM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 1
    Sif-Dyas, not Cypher-DX. Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who died around the time of TPM. He's not Obi-Wan's master. He was a master on the Council.
  13. SantoroSM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 1
    I don't think Vader is saving luke to overthrow the emperor. It was pretty tough for him to do so at the end of ROTJ, so I doubt it was in his plans for 20 years. Besides, I think your theory is internally inconsistent. He wasn't to turn luke, AND overthrow the emperor? How do they go together?

    REPEAT: Vader does not know about Luke. He finds out after Luke becomes famous. Why did no one alert him before? Because Luke lived on Tatooine on a moisture farm, far away from any civilized planet, working on a moisture farm. Vader didn't know he had kids, so he didn't go and look for them there. It's that simple. It wasn't because he hates Tatooine. That is merely a retarded implication. After Episode III, when people find out that Anakin never knew about either child, they will say "Well, how did he know then, so that he could tell Luke?" I already explained that above.
  14. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    I was just thinking that. Owen and Beru don't need to know the whole story. They don't get out that much, so they'd never find out.

    To them Anakin could just be loose-cannon irresponsible father who disappears off to who-knows where and never comes back. Which is why they're worried about luke leaving home.


    the only thing troubline me is that Owen really doesn't want Luke to leave. He does anything to prevent it.

    I think Owen knows. But Beru does not.

    Beru: he's got too much of his father in him

    Owne: That's what I'm afraid of.
  15. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Vader did not know he had kids. He feels the Force in Luke at the battle of Yavin, and then, obviously, the name of Luke Skywalker becomes famous for blowing up the Death Star across the galaxy, and he thinks, "Oh, well that makes sense." That's how he figures it out.


    SantoroSM,

    yeah, we're past that. There are plenty of ways for Vader to not have known about Luke (at least not on Tatoine), but really the issue is how stupid it would have been to name him Skywalker. Personally, I like the idea that he is bait to protect Leia. Vader knew Padme was pregnant, but didn't know of the twins. Vader lets Luke be raised by Owen to protect him from ever learning of his past. But he doesn't know Obi-wan is watching him.
  16. SantoroSM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 1
    Clone434, I just highly doubt that. Vader would want to turn his son or raise his son or something. "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me," is what he said about Leia. Seems like it would be the same with Luke. I mean, come on. Skywalker... why would that name filter back to Vader on Coruscant or God knows where from Tatooine? It was by an odd twist of fate that Luke even became a Jedi (the Tantive IV being attacked near his home planet). It makes no bit of sense to me to have Vader know about Luke.

    Luke was brought to Vader's attention, not part of any master plan. Vader would have immediately recognized his son's presence if he had known, I think. Instead it was merely, "The Force is strong with this one."
  17. Moeskywalker64 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    "That said, one of their greatest enemies arose in part because they did not always show this compassion and understanding on an individual, personal level."

    Man that is so perfectly said Sometimey...
    and you are right that many people do not understand ancient costums...
  18. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    Owen Lars respected and liked Shmi Skywalker, his stepmother. I'm not sure what his opinion of Anakin is (or will be).

    Obi-Wan shows up with a baby boy and tells Owen and Beru that this is Luke, Shmi Skywalker-Lars grandson. He doesn't tell them the rest of the story.

    The Lars take in the child, and to honor Shmi, they call the baby, Luke Skywalker.

    It's only later that Owen is told (I'm not sure how much Beru knows). As long as Luke is unremarkable on a backwater planet, the Empire won't notice--but applying to the Academy is not a good idea. Then the name, Skywalker, will show up on IMPERIAL lists. But Owen doesn't tell Luke that--instead he uses the harvest as an excuse to keep Luke on Tatooine.
  19. AnakinSolo11317 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    Didn't Obi-wan say that he was hiding the twins from the Emperor though? "The Children of Anakin Skywalker would be a threat to his power". So really its a question of why didn't the Emperor go lookin for Luke and Leia, and why he didn't look to the remains of Anakin's family and one of the leaders of the rebellion and close freinds of Obi-Wan to find those children. Just a thought.
  20. SantoroSM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 1
    Master Chbel, I totally agree with you. That makes perfect sense. Owen knows not to let Luke's name seep out. I think EVERYONE in the universe, except Luke and Leia, knows what happened to Vader. I think THAT is a plot anamoly. Why doesn't everyone know what happened to Anakin Skywalker?
  21. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Vader would have immediately recognized his son's presence if he had known, I think. Instead it was merely, "The Force is strong with this one."


    Not to stray off the ep II board, but I think Vader's mitochondria perception skills must be damaged in ep III, because in the OT, it's clear he has had lots of contact with Leia (remember he's going to torture her in ANH), yet doesn't perceive that the feisty babe that looks a bit like Amidala, and a bit like he used to, is also chock full of the little buggers?

    Don't get me wrong, I love all of our attempts to close these gaps, and this is a great discussion, but I'm pretty sure GL doesn't care much about continuity.

    Also, never thought of this. Maybe Greedo now fires first because it fixes a plot hole that comes up in the PT. Doubt it. But the GL apologist in me wishes it were true. Maybe Greedo is that little kid Anakin plays with in TPM? OK, now I'm getting stoopid.
  22. Jedi_Eoc-Lleb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    To all of you who insist Vader does not know about Luke.....
    In ANH, Obi-Wan says "which reminds me, you father wanted you to have this {saber} when you were old enough".
    I can't believe this was only brought up once.
    Anakin/Vader KNEW about Luke, period. He obviously didn't know about Leah though, until ROTJ (in which he truely sounded surprised when he said "sister..."
    Yes, these are not really "plot holes" per say, but more of "stupid errors made by Vader" (or the Emperor).
    BTW, on another note, Palpatine IS Sidious.... in TPM, Gunray says to the Emperor, "but is that...legal?
    In which the Emperor says "I will make it legal"...
    along with the comment made in ANH by whats-his-face military dude saying something to the effect of, "The Emperor has just disbanded the blah blah, eliminating the last remaining elements of the old Republic" (or something to that effect.
  23. Jedi Chikara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 1999
    star 4
    Clone434, I said that Vader thought that Padme died and her unborn child died with her. That's why he doesn't go looking for them. In reality, she didn't die, and gives birth to the twins. All that matters is that Vader never thinks she gave birth to the child.
  24. Jedi Chikara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 1999
    star 4
    Lleb, Obi-Wan was probably lying about Anakin wanting his son to have the saber. He doesn't seem to mind concealing the truth to get things done.
  25. Razorback Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2001
    star 5
    I can't believe this was only brought up once

    That is because most of us are more than aware of the rule of ANH:

    Obi-Wan is a liar. :)

    RB
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