Explain the unexplainable? Plot anamoly discussion

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Clone434, Jun 1, 2002.

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  1. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    Okay, folks, you're right. There's no reason whatsoever to change Luke's name. In fact, I don't think things go far enough. I'm going to petition George Lucas to do an Extra Special Edition of Star Wars: A New Hope...

    I want a CGI billboard with the name "Skywalker" written in lit lightsabers to tower over the Lars moisture farm.

    I want this billboard to have a constantly updated meter that says "Luke's midi-chlorian count is" followed by the number.

    I want C-3PO to ask Owen, well within earshot of Luke, "How is Darth Vader's son, Luke Skywalker, doing? Does he know?!"

    I want the scene where Luke is looking at the suns set to have the following clearly audible voiceover added:
    Beru: Should we tell him?
    Owen: LOOK, BERU, WE JUST CAN'T TELL LUKE THAT HIS FATHER WAS A JEDI WHO TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE AND THAT HIS SISTER, LEIA ORGANA, IS LIVING ON ALDERAAN!!!
    This should be followed by Owen giving the hyperspace travel coordinates between Tatooine and Alderaan in a clear, loud voice.

    Finally, I want the words "Chosen One's Son" tattooed on Luke's friggin' forehead during the entirety of the original trilogy.

    Ya wanna know why? Because even though Jedi Knights, Corellian smugglers, Republic Senators, Bounty Hunters, and former gas mine administrators seem to visit this planet that figures prominently in 3 out of 5 Star Wars movies, no way -- AND I MEAN NO WAY -- will anyone who doesn't need to know that Vader's son is on Tatooine find out any of this.

    This is much, MUCH, MUCH more logical than having Luke's last name be "Lars" or "Antilles" or something.

    Thanks for setting me straight!!!
  2. Hemp-Knight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 1
    Uhh, maybe Skywalker is a very common name, like Smith!
  3. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Um how about it's a convenient plot device to lwt us know that this is really the son of Anakin Skywalker, how's that?
  4. QBF Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 1
    rsterling78 has you guys. He's right. If Luke is being hidden from Vader, this was not the way to do it. Surely a new last name, any last name, would be better if someone is being hidden. Could you imagine our federal witness protection program hiding people this way?

    Luke was not being hidden from Vader. This is the only explanation that makes the situation at the start of ANH reasonable.
  5. Beannaeb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 3
    "Anakin/Vader KNEW about Luke, period."

    No evidence to support that - in fact, much of it supports that Vader doesn't know that his wife had children at all.

    "Vader's perception of Luke's force power through space during the battle of the Death Star does not explain how he knew that Luke was his son. Otherwise, Vader would have been able to perceive that Leia was his daughter when he was face-to-face with her all of those times. "

    Ah but your flaw is clear - Leia never uses the Force, Luke does. When Vader says Luke is strong with the Force, its when Luke turns off his computer and begins reaching out with his feelings to shoot the torpedoes.

    "Remember, it is only AFTER Vader tells Luke that he is his father in ESB that Luke can sense that Vader is his father and communicate with him across space through the force. Awareness of the other's existence is a predicate to sensing the other's identity in the force."

    I think it has more to do with knowing where the person is.

    "Why the f... is she a princess, his putative father Bail Organa was a senator, he was not the King of Alderaan now was he?. Please correct me if i am wrong."

    He's the Viceroy of Alderaan, clearly some kind of royalty. It seems that each individual planet picks HOW they elect a senator to send to Coruscant - and Alderaan chose to send its king, basically.

    "2.- Padme/Amidala is a "Queen". What the f..., she was elected by the people of Naboo. Monarchs, by definition, are not elected. She could´ve been President Amidala or something but not Queen Amidala."

    It's called fiction, live with it. Planets can have an elected queen if they want.

    "Luke was not being hidden from Vader. This is the only explanation that makes the situation at the start of ANH reasonable."

    No, its not. In fact, allow me to present an alternate scenario.

    Let us assume first that Anakin and Padme have moved to Tatooine after the events of Episode II - reasons are clear. Obi-Wan comes to Tatooine and asks Anakin to come back with him - Anakin agrees because he is unhappy on Tatooine but doesn't want to leave Padme. They have one last night together and Anakin leaves. Lets say Padme leaves Tatooine later because she is depressed for some reason, and leaves for somewhere else.

    A few months later, Obi-Wan returns to Owen (who is already upset because he's convinced Anakin to leave Tatooine) and Beru and tells them that Padme and Anakin have died and before their death they wished for Owen and Beru to raise their child. Owen and Beru accept but resent Obi-Wan, thinking he was the cause of Anakin and Padme's death, probably indirectly.

    Yoda and Bail Organa are probably the only people who know there are two children (except Padme, of course), this includes 3po and r2 (who get their memories erased to keep their knowledge of the twins hidden).

    This explains: Owen's grumpiness towards Obi-Wan, Beru's attitude towards Luke's demeanor, Vader's devotion to the dark side (i will get to this in a minute), and 3po, r2's lack of memory for Owen, Beru, Anakin and so forth.

    About Vader's devotion to the dark side - think about this logically. If Anakin had ANY reason - ANY REASON AT ALL - to live other than hate and thirst for revenge, why doesn't he? In other words, why would Vader devote himself to Palpatine willingly if he knows that he has a son out there somewhere? In fact, it makes MORE sense that Vader thinks he has nothing left but to kill Obi-Wan and crush the Rebellion...until he discovers that he has a son. Once he discovers that he has a son, his focus changes - and he decides to devote all his resources to finding Luke.

    With regards to Luke's name - I think subtly Lucas has been touching on this idea. First, we don't really know that Luke DIDN'T go by the name Luke Lars on Tatooine. If you're a rebellious youth and you're told that the people you're living with aren't your parents, but your aunt and uncle, and your real father was a man named Anakin Skywalker - you may decide to introduce YOURSELF as Luke Skywalker
  6. Cruelt-Kan-Lamech Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    good, that is great.
    Ok, so can we now discuss some other plot holes? I mean, sure, keep talking about this, but aren't there other questions that need adressing?

    Let's spend more time on Threepio and Artoo and there not coming out with the info. Memory wipes. I said it already in this post. They have memory's of many adventures. Why? Because they remember all the PT. Plus, it is commonly known that Droids of their... Individuality happen because of infrequent or nonexistant mem wipes. Come on, it's for thier very personality that they never get replaced, not to mention memory wiped, there by eraseing what makes them them. Did they just not tell Luke. Of course, it doesn't matter, cause if they did, it would be a different movie, but let's come up with something more inventive than memory wipes.

    Oh, and is that Bib Fortuna with Jabba in Epp I? if so, he is ANCIENT in ROTJ.
  7. Beannaeb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 3
    I think R2 and 3PO will get a mem wipe - because they will know information that they aren't supposed to know, namely, that Padme DID have children and that there were two of them. Perhaps they also overhear where the children are brought. This would actually be a feasible reason to mem wipe a droid, other than simply "UH OH CANT LET THEM KNOW ABOUT THE PT, LETS MEM WIPE THEM"
  8. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Lucas has recently said in an interview that Threepio and Artoo get their memory wiped in Episode III.

    Here's something that's not really a plot hole, but it's never really that well explained (and confused me when I first saw SW as a kid): When Ben meets Luke, he gives him his father's lightsabre... a nice cyan color. We never see Ben's sabre.

    Later, in Mos Eisley, Ben chops up a dude. With a sabre that's a nice cyan color. Looks exactly like Anakin's... in fact, I assumed that Ben was carrying around Anakin's sabre while he and Luke were travelling together.

    Later, on the Millenium Falcon, Luke is practicing with the same funky cyan sabre. Then, of course, Ben fights Vader and dies, his sabre left behind.

    Luke escapes, and in TESB, we see him in the Hoth cave, using a funky cyan sabre. I always wondered... how the HELL did Luke get his father's sabre back from Ben's vanished body? :D
  9. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Where did Shimi's grave marker and those other two go in the OT??? The scene in AOTC where she is buried looks like it's the same place that the sandcrawler parks to sell the droids in ANH! What gives? Grandma Skywalker's grave run over by filthy Jawas...the nerve! Anyone got a good movie (not, "because GL didn't think of it back in '77") excuse for the disappearing markers?
  10. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    - a really bad duststorm
    - Tuskans desecrating the graves
    - "I'm not dead yet!"
  11. lurk Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    Fascinating movies, fascinating discussion.

    I apologise if these have been talked about before, but I have not found answers for myself, so I would appreciate thoughts on these anomalies.
    Here are some of the questions I can't answer for myself.

    1. Why did OB1, Padme, etc leave Anakin's mother as a slave at the end of TPM? I understand that as a plot device, but on a logical human level- how could they be so heartless, seeing as they did have power and resources to grant her a safer, better life, even if she was not to see Anakin, who had to be taken away and trained as is the order of the Jedi. Furthermore it's only common sense that if they do not want the boy to give in to sadness, hurt, hate, etc., they could easily give some peace of mind that his mother is ok, is not a slave anymore.
    When later Anakin tells OB1 he has nightmaress about his mother, sees that she is in pain, which considering the Jedi powers of sensing things, reasonably can be true, why is OB1 so dismissive and nonchalant about something that has such real power over Anakin's emotions.

    2. Why can't Yoda and the rest of the Jedi sense the force or whatever the Sith's have in the presense of Palpy?

    3. Why in the OT can't Vader sense the force, however underdeveloped in Leia?

    4.If Luke and Leia are OB1 and Yoda's hope for fighting the Dark Side, why is Luke left untrained and why are no steps taken until by accident R2D2 brings Luke and OB1 together?

    I'll be so grateful for your thoughts.
  12. Han Soho Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 1998
    Which leads to a bigger plot anomaly - you are trying to hide the son of Vader from his father, and you retain the surname "Skywalker" for Luke? Methinks Obiwan and Owen Larrs got knocked a lot in the head that time...
  13. Dan26 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    star 1
    QUOTE
    1.)In AOTC, Obi-Wan personally learns of the existence of both armies, and learns of Jango Fett's involvement with both. Why does he not get more suspicious of the clones? After all, if I'm not mistaken, he's the one that, looking over the huge clone army says, "we almost lost that one." The best answer I can come up with is that he doesn't assume Jango Fett has any allegiences and believes Jango is helping both sides as a sort of free-agent mercenary. He doesn't even see these two armies as related initially. But when Jango is so closely linked to D'koo (sitting in the luxury box with him), and later, the two armies do battle, it seems incredible for Obi-Wan and the remaining Jedi Council to assume that Jango was purely a hired gun for two unrelated armies.


    After the Geononis battle, Obi-wan just thinks Jango is a bounty hunter who took two jobs (which he did.)

    No doubt the council and Obi-Wan just assumed that he was the template for the Clone army (which he was ), as well as taking a job for Dooku as he personal protector (which he was.)

    Remember guys, Jango has no idea what's going on. He doesn't know the reasons behind the clone army. He just wants his money. Remember, when the Clones attack the droids, they are only doing so because Yoda and Mace Windu made the decision. It wasn't as if it was a coincidence. There was a conscious decision by Yoda and Windu to use the clone army.

    What other possible conclusion could they come to, other than Jango being hired by both sides? This was their only conclcusion, and it was the CORRECT conclusion. Jango WAS hired by both sides, so the Jedi were correct with their assumption. The Jedi have no way of knowing or guessing that Dooku is Tyranus.

    QUOTE
    2. In the OT, we are told that Luke and Leia were both "hidden" from Vader. Vader didn't even know he had a daughter, so it might be believable that he wouldn't find Leia--even when placed with Palp's former right-hand man, Bail Organa. But Vader knew he had a son. Doesn't it seem incredible that Vader wouldn't be able to find him on Tatoine? living with his step-brother, who, in AOTC, he meets? Seems a mighty big stretch. The only explanation I see is that Palp didn't tell him he had a son until sometime after ANH.


    I don't think Vader knows that he has a son. Luke's last name would hardly be a factor, because there are probably thousands of other "Skywalkers' in the galaxy (maybe it's like Smith) and why would an 18 year old's surname attract attention on a faraway planet? Especially when no one even knows he had a son anyway! (including Vader himself.) There are millions of planets, so why would Vader spend time looking for a son, that he doesn't even know he has?

    If he did know he had a son (to make sense of the statement, "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough") then I assume that Palpatine told Vader to forget about his family completely. They are no use to a Dark Lord of the Sith. In that case I believe Palpatine doesn't know about the kids. They are hidden to be protected from the Emperor, so that he doesn't find about about them. Vader doesn't tell Palpy about Luke (obviously Vader doesn't know about Leia) Once Vader becomes a dark lord, he ignores his family, because he has turned to the dark side. He ignores his son, until Luke's destiny crosses his path 20 years later.

    And besides, why would Vader assume Obi-Wan would take Luke to Own and Beru? Anakin thinks that Obi-Wan doens't even know who Owen and Beru are! Think of it from Vader's point of view. He is thinking of places where Obi-Wan would take Luke, right? Vader has no idea that Obi-wan knows who Owen and Beru are, so why would Vader assume that Obi-Wan would take Luke there? Obi-Wan probably finds out about Owen and Beru from Padme.

    As far as Anakin knows, the only people, that know about Owen and Beru are he and Padme. Vader would assume Obi-Wan would take Luke to places that are familiar with Obi-Wan. Tatooine (a
  14. Dan26 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    star 1
  15. Cruelt-Kan-Lamech Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    why'd Jango stay on Kamino so long if they had what they needed from him ten years ago. Or even 5 years ago?
  16. Dan26 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    star 1
    Because Kamino is his home.

    He can still leave to go on trips, and so forth.
  17. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Luke was brought to Vader's attention, not part of any master plan. Vader would have immediately recognized his son's presence if he had known, I think. Instead it was merely, "The Force is strong with this one."

    OK, SantoroSM, you're convincing me that Vader didn't know about Luke (I wasn't that sold on it though). But I still think it was stupid to name him Skywalker otherwise. The fact that Leia wasn't named Skywalker, and the fact that Vader said "obi-wan was wise to have hidden her from me" and not "obi-wan was wise to have hidden y'all from me" makes me think that Luke wasn't hidden. I think that's implied in the name. My guess now is that they didn't care about Luke. Maybe they had a bad midichlorian reading at first, and just cast him aside. Maybe they left him as bait for Vader to find so that if he found him, he would be satisfied. But I just won't believe they were just stoopid enough to stick him on Vader's old planet where Anakin Skywalker made a big name for himself. There had to have been a design to it.

    I still think it's possible that Vader knew of his existence, didn't tell the emporer and tried to let his son grow up to be a normal nobody. When he felt that the force was strong "with this one," he was just starting to put it together. Like he had a familiar feeling he didn't understand. Vader might even have given Luke to Owen and told him to keep him trapped on Tatoine indefinitely, hoping he would stay clear of galactic conflict.

    just some ideas...
  18. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Master Chbel, I totally agree with you. That makes perfect sense. Owen knows not to let Luke's name seep out. I think EVERYONE in the universe, except Luke and Leia, knows what happened to Vader. I think THAT is a plot anamoly. Why doesn't everyone know what happened to Anakin Skywalker?


    Because everyone that knows Anakin at the time of the transformation either dies, becomes a hermit on Tatoine, becomes a hermit on Dagobah, or is the emporer. (or is named Boba Fett? hmmm). I susp3ect in ep III, we'll see Anakin get worked over pretty good, so much so that it will really be credible that he'd dead. Only the emperor will say, "we can rebuild him, make him stronger, faster....na na na na na."


  19. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    Okay, folks, c'mon.

    Where are the Skywalker-is-the-most-common-name-in-the-universe crowd?

    How about the Tatooine-is-too-remote-for-anyone-to-notice-anything-even-though-the-planet-gets-visited-by-damn-near-every-major-character-in-three-out-of-five-movies people?

    I know you're out there!
  20. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Skywalker on Tatooine. Except for Vader/Palp/OB1/Yoda...that name has no meaning for people whatsoever. That's like while visiting a Mcdonald's you meet a cashier named Jon Doe. You don't know him...his name is not special. Why would you tell anyone you met ever... that you knew there was a John Doe working there.


    and then two paragraphs later:

    Perhaps Skywalker is a pretty unique name. Vader can also feel that he is strong in the force during the battle of the Death Star. Also when he finds out the name Luke Skywalker, he perhaps began looking onto it.


    OB1Anakin.

    I think you have an anomoly of your own here. To answer one question you say Skywalker is like John Doe, and two answer another you say it's "pretty unique."

    consistency is next to godliness
  21. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Who won the MLB NL mvp 30 years ago?

    I think a better analogy is "who was the first black quarterback to win a super bowl" or, "who was the first black player to play in the major leagues?"

    The answers are obvious. Doug Williams and Jackie Robinson. Even if everybody doesn't know that, I think enough people remember the names of pioneers that somebody would remember.

    Bottom line, if Luke was truly hidden from Vader, they would have given him another name. The real question is did Vader know, or was Luke purely bait.
  22. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Besides, I don't think that pod racing is as big as basebal. More like minor league Nascar. They raced in the outer rim for pete's sake.


    realy, the crowd looked pretty big considering it's not a heavily populated planet. In fact, it looked pretty much like the biggest thing on the planet.

    Not to mention in AOTC, when Anakin and Obi-Wan are chasing Zam Wessel, in the bar, you can see people playing a pod-racing video game. I'm sorry But Anakin would BE ON THAT GAME. He'd be like freakin' Tony Hawk. Every human playing that game would want to be Anakin. And that game was being played on Coruscant, not Tatoine, which means that Pod racing is known all over the galaxy--from the center worlds to the outer rim. That means Anakin is a galactic sports hero.

    There is no way Luke was affirmatively hidden from Vader.
  23. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Ah but your flaw is clear - Leia never uses the Force, Luke does. When Vader says Luke is strong with the Force, its when Luke turns off his computer and begins reaching out with his feelings to shoot the torpedoes.

    Beannaeb, In TPM, I believe Qui-Gon Gin feels the force around anakin before he even does anything. Anakin hadn't even heard of the force at that time. YIPEEE!
  24. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    Excellent points, Clone434!

    I've tried to point out that Luke being "hidden" with Darth Vader's step-brother in the house where his mom used to live with the name "Skywalker" retained is just plain silly.

    I've noticed that a lot of folks have gone to ridiculous lengths to try to refute this line of reasoning. Maybe they think I'm a basher and they feel they need to be defensive.

    Barring some astounding explanation in Episode III, this is simply a great big plot hole. The same sort of thing happened with Arthur Conan Doyle's stories about Sherlock Holmes. It's hard to keep a large body of fiction written at different times internally consistent. This isn't a bash, just a fact.

  25. Clone434 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    rsterling, actually, compared to many of the boards here, I feel as though this is just a really good discussion. Of course we both know that we're right ;), but I haven't sensed the hostility toward alternate ideas that I saw when I read a few negative review-posts on AOTC.

    I totally agree on the difficulty of keeping a whole other universe consistent. The lord of the rings was written all at once, and even it has some inconsistencies with the Hobbit. I can forgive a plot hole here or there. The only thing I can't forgive is Greedo fires first.
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