EXPLOSIONS IN LONDON!!

R - you remind me so much of myself!

As a Northerner it is our tradition to 'call a spade a spade' (southerners call it a 'Gardening Implement' - lol ).

Its just what you do with that spade...but I appreciate the sharing of your experience/s and life - we do not meet often enough to see that we have a lot in common, even though we are so very different (unless of course, through this forum!).

Just thought I would share the below...helps me get through the day sometimes.

LEARN - words by Chris Jones, Verbal Assault (1985)

I look at what has changed
In a way, it's just the same
This still means something to me
And I try to make my ideals reality

I'm gonna learn

Was all that we said and we sung
Just silly adolescent fantasies?
Well, maybe some of them were
But I know that I still believe

Yeah, I believe

And what has happened to the rest?
They've drifted away, was it for the best?
And what will happen when it's our turn?
We'll look at their mistakes and learn

 

Raskolnikov, my parents tell me that Kashmir is one of the most beautiful places on earth. They wanted to take me and my sister there a few months ago on our trip to India but, due to the awful situation there, couldn't.

You are right, most of us have not had experiences like you. I am truly sorry if I caused offence.

 

Broad statement to make.

IRA perhaps .


I was in Manchester when they bombed the Arndale centre, not a fun day I can tell you

With us not knowing your history we can only call it as we see it.

I agree the PC police have a lot to answer for in the misguided way this country is run.


I think most people are concerned with innocent people who are hurt whomever and wherever they are, religion or otherwise.

Our information tells us that these terrorists are a minority (although they do get support from some certain extreme governments) and that they need to be dealt with.

Unfortunately fanatics are notoriously hard to negotiate with because they believe there is one way and one way only and that is their way and unless you conform you are and infidel/trator etc...


Whilst we are not condoning anything these morons have done we need to look at a way to stop things from escalating further.


My understanding of Islam is that it is like the majority of religions in that it teaches compassion, friendship, patience etc... one song, a lot of hymn books. Unfortunately some corrupt these "teachings" and use them for their own perverse purposes.


I'm sorry you've had a lot of crap happen in your life and the fact that is going on now is appaling however not everyone looks at someone with different colour skin and thinks terrorist.




By the way that spade wasn't a spade

It was a rake

 

Good points made by Edge, although Raskolnikov's original worry (if I read you correctly) is on not addressing the main instigator?s reason for the attack, but side-stepping it. I agree with you on that, the media and governing bodies are all too good at ?spinning? events to their own uses or agendas, but resolving the actual causation issues may be difficult to say the least.

The problem here is that the reason for such an attack is usually unique to every incident, being the work of an insular group of a few people, with their own fanatical interpretation of historical text (be it religious origin or not.) So trying to ?generalise? to reasons or issues may be impossible. There may be as many reasons to attack citizens of your or someone else?s homeland as there are different violent fanatical individuals out there.

Regarding the sky news article and its impact on civil liberty. I am afraid the article is just commenting on Charles Clarke?s attempt to EU rubber stamp the law that ALREADY EXISTS in the UK since November 2001 (Jack Straw?s anti-Terrorism Act Revision Part 3 and Part 11).

The wording of the said act makes monitoring and storing of anyone?s electronic communication commonplace under the blanket justification of ?for the purpose of fighting terrorism and other crime.? How general and woolly is that statement! Worst of all, hidden in the act is a paragraph where the governing body can put a complete media embargo on the detaining of anyone for an indefinite period without justification. Freedom of speech - I don?t think so.

Horrified at the attacks as I am, I doubt sacrificing our civil liberties as an unqualified ?means? to prevent terrorism (in whatever form) is the answer. I am over simplifying somewhat, but was our liberty what (in part) the world wars of the last century were about? If we give them up then has the perpetrators won?

One final point, before I get off my high-tauntaun?
Mr Clarke said: "I argue that it is a fundamental civil liberty of people in Europe to be able to go to work on their transport system in the morning without being blown up or subjected to terrorist attack."

How sick is that. To use this as an example for pushing his own agenda to the EU community, that had already rejected them back in April.

 

Well the EU community does have some uses then.

On a lighter note, did anyone else hear someone refer to Tony's impotence during PMQ today?

 

I would sacrifice a few civil liberties to maintain the safety of British people.

 

....sadly its not 'one' they want though Mustafar....they want the whole damn shooting party, so giving up your civil liberties will only weaken your already weakening future....unity in purpose - against terrorism of all forms smiles and walks off singing 'Rule Britannia'....patriotism on the rise again....just like when we were winning at football...oh, for sport (not that I like it....)

Arent these 'interesting' lyrics....never really read them b4.....(definately never sang them...)

Rule Britannia
a song by Thomas Augustine Arne, 1740

When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

The nations not so blest as thee,
Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

Still mor majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame,
All their attempts to bend thee down
Will but arouse thy generous flame;
But work their woe, and thy renown.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

To thee belongs the rural reign;
They cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

The Muses, still with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crowned,
And manly hearts to juide the fair.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

Duh.

 

'tis an interesting argument. A 'right' by its very definition is something that cannot be taken away from you. Do we regard electronic communication as a right or a privilege? A debate worthy of a Con & Ad lecture this one

 

Raskolnikov makes excellent points!

I, as an Irish man, have felt the coldness and nastiness from the UK mainland during the IRA attrocities- but I never blamed the people- how can i when its natural to live in fear of what is killing or threatening to kill you. Me and my friend went to Guernsey in 93 and at MAnchester airport we were detained for an hour while they did security checks on us- and rightly so. Though all the guys in suits on the flight got through unquestioned! But I never thought "These people are ignorant and treating all us Irish with the same brush etc etc' so as to make a big deal about it. I blamed the terrorists and the scum like them. Good muslims wont walk around with tshirts on them saying 'hi, I'm good!', so people have everyright to be wary of the religion and in doing so NOT be labelled racist. Its time to maybe take a tougher stance on 'civil liberities' and tell the PC/human rights do gooders to **** off! And for the people of muslim faith to look at themselves and realise people have a right to be wary of them (but I dont condone indiscreminate acts of violence). Muslims have to shun and out all the evil ones in their society. Though saying this and doing is actually harder as I know over here if you 'out' terrorists then yer not going to be around very long after. So the government has to clamp down and stop worrying about votes over peoples lives.

Notice the USA turned two muslims from Britians back recently who flew over just after the bombings, listed as undesirables. Why cant Britain take that tough stance and forget the PC and others opinions. Rant over!

 

Read here about the US Patriot Act - learn from their 'experiences' and then think about giving up your rights so easily (exactly what rights would you be happy to give up - do you even know?)

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/00000002D2C6.htm

Food for thought - has it made a difference to the 'War on Terrorism'? Nope

ID Cards? The response to this terrorist outrage should not be yet more repressive laws, such as ID cards, which will cost us a fortune, curtail democratic rights and do nothing to stop terrorist attacks. Spain has ID cards but the Madrid bombings still killed 191 people.

Finally...some history.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar

 

I still don't get the whole fuss over ID cards. Other than being expensive, what's so bad about them?

 

Have we not learnt anything from the chronicled reign of Emperor Palpatine; the use of a life-threatening menace to gain extra civil powers, then the gradual adoption of said-powers into everyday use.

Are we naïve enough to think that extra civil powers will not be used for anything other than direct prevention of terrorism? (Remember the woolly wording of the act quoted earlier!)

Hmm!
Exactly how far do you go down this path?
Carrying id cards 24/7, the use of regular checkpoints throughout populated areas, secret informants reporting communication, gossip and hearsay ?for the good of the nation?, systematic curfews, the direct labelling of a certain socio-group as ?undesirable?, the banning of any large congregation of people, segregation?

Beginning to sound familiar. Early 1930s. Germany.

In addition, correct me if I?m wrong anyone, none of the recent legislative amendments against terrorism would have prevented the events of 7/7 or 9/11 for that matter. Yet it is being used as the definitive justification.

The US of A has a separate monitoring body to those using the legislation. In addition the press to a certain extent can help to highlight any injustices or misuse of powers. In the UK, who oversees the overseers? In many cases committees with members having an invested interest. And with the potential blocking of ALL media reporting on an ?alleged civil liberty infringement?, how is this kept in check? (Remember the ?complete media embargo? paragraph in the act quoted earlier!)

Fellow Jedi, watch out for any late night parliamentary amendments that may be sneaked in under the political radar, especially if you see any labelled ?order 66?!!!

 

I think that once we sacrifice our rights, we let the terrorists win as that is exactly what they want to happen. They want us to willingly forego our freedom.

And I also agree with Raj, that most of our rights are natural and cannot be taken away. It is only the rights embodied in positive law that can be defended and enforced, and these are the ones that they threaten to take away. Like we have the right not to imprisoned without a trial or a cause but then this whole house arrest thing comes and messes that up.

We can't give up our rights taht our ancestors fought and died for so easily.

 

..they have under a week to go before parliament closes for summer recess, and of course while they are having extra security measures installed (thicker screening against attack, upon recommendation the MI5). Dont think anything will go through....I hope...

Its funny how we all seem to have come here because of 'Star Wars', yet the Star Wars saga questions some of the ethics and morals that we are debating here and experiencing.

I will stick with Padme....
'What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and
the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?'

 

I know,
Blair / Palpatine,
transformation of Labour (Old to 'New Labour') / formation of the 'Empire'.

The parallels are uncanny

EDIT - at least with Thatcher you knew there was no alter ego, the 'dark force' is what you saw, 'dark force' is what you got

 

Here we go:

Watching the news on Channel Five and one of the countless Muslim talking-heads has finally said it, its now out in the open.

He said that these muslims resorted to terrorism because...you guessed it, they were acting on justified notions of oppression in Palestine.

Hey guy, why not name Kashmir? Muslims are blowing themselves up there too because of "oppression". Same with the Phillipines, and the United States, and Russia.

You see now that this is is engrained into their religion/culture - they believe they are the victims and frankly I find this sickening. I find it sickening that this idiot can get on the news and sprout his rhetoric without being challenged.

I posted this in the Senate Forum:

 

Charles speak the truth imo!

But I have heard since that some muslim leaders have seen this as an 'attack' on them! Unless they see the problems within then these wackos will never go away.

 

Nice one Charlie - when can we come round to root out your lot out then?

The 'media whores' are now talking about the possibility that it may not have been a wholly 'muslim plan' (or even Muslim concieved at all) - one of the suspected 'bombers' was from the Carribean....it will all come out in the wash in the end of course, but it can be so easy to be judgemental in this atmosphere where blame and emotions come easy as we all ask the question 'why' and 'who'...

Patience. Divide and conquer is the game dont forget.

 

Hear hear Jase!

 

Where did it say this? I've been having a some what brief read of BBC news and never seen this mentioned. Links and sources are always good when making statements like that. THats not a dig- just that it helps strengthen your statement and not make it look like chinese whispers i.e. I heard from a friend who heard from the milkman etc. Though the media is prone to chinese whispers but at least its a source to quote/link.

 

If you so desperately want a link and reference from these media whores - heres your fuel to the fire. Like I said - if you want to get caught up in the 'pointing finger' game then continue to listen to them, shout off and continue their game. (it was divide and conquer - y'all know the rules dont y'all?)

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-15T060039Z_01_SCH444489_RTRUKOC_0_SECURITY-BRITAIN-SUSPECT.xml

It WILL all come out in the wash in the end, but for those who we point fingers to know, imagine the hatred and bigotry they have to survive in the interim, while the media have you all running round in circles speading accusations and whipping up fever (not like them to do that now is it...?). Death threats, firebombs, physical violence - I know some of you can appreciate this, probably from experience. Now who will be the terrorists?

Even my local news (South Today - for those who need links) displayed exacting images and descriptions of the parents, businesses owned by parents, communities, home addresses and anything else that any odd ball would need to go and create havoc for them right now. Welcome to the lynch mob.

Patience. It CAN happen in Britain. It HAS happened in Britain. What makes any of us any better that it shouldnt happen here more than anywhere else? Go read the Rule Britannia lyrics above, if you feel that fervent...

 

Ummmm... I see nothing in that article from the 'whore mongers' that states anything we dont know!

 

....then patience is it. Learn nothing more you will, nothing less.

 

Eh?