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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate The Middle East Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Whatever you read didn't quite give you the full picture:






    Maybe you ought to stop citing prominent American anti-imperialists.
     
  2. True Sith

    True Sith Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2015
    It's not just about what other countries merely think about the U.S.; the long term effects beyond the short-sighted action you're proposing could be disastrous in their own way. These are nations like Russia (who also have nukes btw), Iran, etc. who would be a lot more aggressive towards the U.S. if they pulled a stunt like that. And as has already been said, it would simply encourage even more terrorists to rise up with extreme anti-American ideologies.
     
  3. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    It's fine for you to sit and claim you don't care what other countries think of the US, but that will only work with isolated countries ala North Korea. Last I checked, we had things like trade deals, negotiations, memberships in supranational organizations and alliances to tend to. Our good standing in these allow us to exert influence. It's the benefits of being a good citizen of the world. What you're advocating for is exerting our military might on anyone or anything regardless of the consequences. That is precisely how one becomes a North Korea.
     
  4. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    I said it before, but since Vivec aptly observed it also, it bears still more repeating-- there are clear links between those in the United States who are fanatical in their views toward Islam and terrorism and those in ISIL. Sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference-- you just change a few of the words and it becomes almost identical. The reasons are obvious, particularly when authoritarianism is considered.

    If you didn't catch that, Moviefan2k4, I'll put it in as easy to understand terms as I can-- I think there's virtually no difference between you and those that you would seek to destroy.
     
  5. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    No, I'm only advocating violence toward those who attack us first. We need to protect our own, instead of trying to police the entire world.
     
  6. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I don't understand this argument. Every 'right' is inherently granted by a government. Where is God giving out these rights? Apart from being wrong (the Founding Fathers were, at most, deist) I don't understand why it is somehow better to have a 'God' give you a right? He can't change them when they are outdated (amendments). He isn't accountable. And most of all he doesn't live under these rights, so he would have no motivation to give you good rights. You want a country whose citizens have 'rights from God'? Go to Iran.

    Wait so:

    a) if it isn't the Law it isn't the Law - there is no 'other Law' which exists.
    b) Sharia means 'Law', so if you're going to say stuff about it, at least say it correctly, not 'Law law'.
    c) are all Muslims poverty stricken, or are all poverty stricken people Muslims?

    Apart from the fact that the Muslims are foreign and 'different' why would they come to America to practise Sharia? Why not just go to Iran or Saudi Arabia? Are you also as scared of the traditional Jewish Law, etc?

    So we should... nuke ISIS? Please be consistent.
     
  7. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    So, when has ISIS attacked the US?
     
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  8. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    The idea of the Founders being deists is simply not true. A few were agnostic or just theistic rather than Christian, but many were the latter. Thomas Jefferson even attended a church service in the U.S. Capitol, just 3 days after writing his response to the Danbury Baptists.

    Ramza Edit: I would suggest you familiarize yourself with our rules regarding hate speech.
     
  9. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    ISIS wasn't the group that did 9/11.
     
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  10. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Wait, you actually believe that? Most were either agnostic or deist.

    Have you read the Old Testament?

    No, the reason we haven't 'won', is because Bush took the terrorists bait and started two wars in the Middle East which, whether he intended it or not, has creating exponentially more Islamic terrorism than there was before. The region collapsed and now we have a terrorist group, worse than the original which attacked the United States, basically administering parts of Syria and Iraq. For all of Obama's faults you can't blame him for this mess. Fact of the matter is if we hadn't reacted the way we did to 9/11 (and by that I mean two wars) we probably wouldn't have been in this mess we are in now, and because of this we are all at more of a risk now than we were in the days following 9/11. And you want to excalate the situation? I would rather the situation didn't get worse. Real world politics are extremely complicated.
     
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  11. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Moviefan2k4: you didn't refute the false dilemma - you didn't even try. So you need to abandon your position. You now know that it's a position based on a false premise.
     
  12. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Moviefan2k4 Where in the U.S. does Sharia law fester in poverty-stricken areas?
     
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  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I wish I were good enough at photoshop to make a World According to Moviefan map.

    "God's Favorite Country" would be written across the United States. Across Europe, Australia and Canada, "Heathen Places With Commie Leftists." Mexico, Central and South America, "Brown People Who Are Invading The U.S. For Benefits." Asia, Africa and the Middle East, "Places that Need to be Nuked."
     
  14. Hank Hill

    Hank Hill Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2013
  15. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    I'm probably still on his ignore, since I'm still having a rap beef with Jesus.

    But this:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Putin sets up military base just outside Damascus to erm, help in fight against ISIS.
     
  17. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Russia is deploying troops to Syria, and building an airbase there too.

    Something tells me this won't bring stability.
     
  18. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Russia proposes military cooperation with the US

    I think I know what to do!
    The international community should propose the following to Assad: we help you, we'll get the whole country united and back in your hands - if you then hold a fair and democratic election.
    Anybody wanna shoot holes in this?
     
  19. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Assad would never sincerely agree to a "fair" democratic election, and he's alienated too many states/parties with his conduct over the course of the war (especially his use of chemical weapons and barrel bombs). I don't know what's going to happen to him, but the Syria arbitrarily created by France and Britain is gone forever. Even if by some miracle a sufficient international military force reunified and pacified the country, there's nothing left but ashes and deep-seated enmity among the various religions, ethnicities, and political factions-- plus practically no one likes the state anymore, even many Alawites. I recently saw an estimate that even at a good 5% growth rate, it would take decades for the Syrian economy to get back to its 2010 size.
     
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  20. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    If his situation is dire enough, he'll come round. And it seems to be getting pretty dire.
    Do you imagine any other solution?
     
  21. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I don't know what the solution is (I'm leaning toward there not really being one), but it's certainly not Super Friends Russia and the United States kicking down the door and saving the day with more guns and bombs.
     
  22. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    If you don't offer an alternative, then isn't not doing anything the solution you support?
    I don't think not doing anything is working out very well at all.
     
  23. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I think stopping all military and financial aid (from the U.S., Russia, EU, Gulf states, Turkey) to factions within Syria would go a long way toward taking steam out of the conflict-- the regime and Daesh especially. Yes, the country would still be divided, but it's not as though it isn't normal for a post-1945 civil war in developing countries to last decades or a de facto divided country to become the new status quo. Although realistically it isn't going to stop because all the foreign actors are interested in their guys winning, pumping money and arms into them always makes things worse.
     
  24. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    It's very true that too many countries are involved with too many sides in the conflict. But as you say, it's not realistic to expect them to stop so... that's not a solution.
     
  25. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    You mean they aren't going to listen to some guy on an internet messageboard?! I'm sorry if I think war is too complicated for Rambo.
     
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