PT Failure to set up the Dark Side

With this thread, I would like to discuss what is IMO one of the failures of the PT, namely the failure to properly set up the Dark Side of the Force. What do I mean by this?

The OT, particulary TESB did a very good job of explaining the danger of having great power to the one who wields the Force. Joining the Dark Side is not just a question of being a Jedi or a Sith or turning a switch. It is represented as an internal struggle, that each prospective Jedi has to go through, before becoming a Jedi Knight. You deal with your negative emotions or you get consumed by them. It is hinted that it is precisely this real danger that Obi-Wan underestimated, when he took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi.

None of this is ever mentioned in the PT. In the PT the Dark Side is essentially represented by some ancient cult that is believed to have been wiped out ages ago. Of course Yoda speaks of the Dark Side in TPM, but only in the most superficial of terms: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. However, in reality the danger of the Dark Side is apparently non existent, as Jedi almost never leave the order (only twenty have done so in it's entire history). More specifically, the Jedi treat the notion of Count Dooku having turned bad the same as believing in Santa Claus.

In the PT, rather than dealing with your emotions, you simply don't have them, period. Jedi are not allowed to have attachments, because putting your head in the sand is the best way to keep out of danger. In a sense this is the best advice the Master Jedi has for young Anakin in ROTS, when he struggles with his fears and doubts. Just put your head in the sands of Tatooine, and all will be well. Worst of all, we are supposed to believe, that this rediculous philosophy has sustained the Jedi for over a thousand generations.

 

I don't see it. I think the dark side was handled well in the PT. D

 

I don't see what the problem is. The audience (including kids) are not stupid. We see the light side and dark side practitioners and can compare their actions. We're told that the Jedi is not supposed to give in to strong emotions, especially fear and anger. Or to have emotional attachments. They're also supposed to be compassionate (even to their enemies). Then we see what happens when the Jedi break those rules (which all of them do to some extent, even Yoda). The letting go speech Yoda gives to Anakin is pretty much the same he tells Luke in TESB. As far as internal struggle, Anakin's story is a good representation of that, did you expect everyone else to be the same?

 

that's basically what the entire pt is about.

 

That's precisely the problem. How can you be compassionate without an emotional attachment? There's nothing wrong with normal emotions, and the audience knows this. That was the most rediculous statement in TMP, where Yoda says to Anakin, a nine year old kid, that it's wrong that he misses his mother. He literally says to Anakin, you should not mourn those that die. In other words, it's wrong to have normal human emotions. This is rediculous in the extreme. What he should have said, is that it's oke to have those emotions, but you should not allow these emotions to overwhelm you, to control your actions. There are some vague statements about fear and attachments, but is that really the best advice that Yoda can give, after having thaught Jedi for almost 900 years? Anakin is the first person in a millenium to have emotional struggles? And those emotional struggles are somehow wrong? Are the Jedi younglings really that brainwashed? I find that to be simply not believable.

 

Are you emotionally attached to strangers? No, but I assume you can be compassionate to them.

"Wrong"?

He never said that.

Those are your words, not Yoda's.

It's a ridiculous interpretation on your part.

See, you understood what he said after all.

What's unbelievable is the baseless conclusions you jump to by using terms like "right" or "wrong" when those are never mentioned by the characters.

 

No it's not. Anakin is presented as a unique case. I mean even Count Dooku turns bad over night, without so much as an explanation in the films. In the PT you are either good = Jedi or you are bad = Sith. Anakin is represented as Space Jesus, and the only person who apparently struggles with his identity, which somehow is a bad thing, because everybodyu should be emotionally inept like the Jedi. The message of the PT basically is, you should not have emotions and attachments, because then you are a Sith.

 

Source?

Padmé and Bail were great Jedi.

How are the Jedi emotionally inept? And when is Anakin struggling with his identity?

You can't fault your own limitations on the PT.

 

TPM:

Yoda: How feel you?
Anakin: Cold, sir.
Yoda: Afraid are you?
Anakin: No, sir.
Yoda: See through you we can.
Mace Windu: Be mindful of your feelings.
Ki-Adi-Mundi: Your thoughts dwell on your mother.
Anakin: I miss her.
Yoda: Afraid to lose her I think, hmm?
Anakin: What has that got to do with anything?
Yoda: Everything! Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.

Yoda literally says it's wrong that he's afraid to lose his mother, which probably is the most basic emotion a child can have. So, no it is not an interpretation on my part.

ROTS:

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.

Again he says you should not miss or mourn those you love, because attachment is wrong.

And yes, in order to be compassionate, you need to have some kind of emotional attachment or emotional investment. That's what compassion is: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

 

The Jedi don't ban feelings. Clearly, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan care about each other. What's disallowed is possessive attachment because it leads to greed and other negative emotions that are extremely dangerous for anyone who yields so much power. Emotional attachments can also be used by the enemies to manipulate the Jedi (exactly what happens to Luke). Yoda is saying the same thing to both Anakin and Luke: trust the Force, let go of your fear, if your loved ones die, accept it as a natural change otherwise you'll suffer emotionally or it may drive you to do something evil.

Now, of course, that the Jedi are not perfect and don't always follow their own advice. Yoda, for example, decides to save Anakin and Obi-Wan rather than pursue Dooku. Obi-Wan can't bring himself to kill Anakin and basically breaks down at the end of their fight (You were my brother Anakin! I loved you! - doesn't sound like he's unattached does it?)

At the same time, the Jedi philosophy is somewhat flawed and overly dogmatic in a sense that they don't recognize the positive side of the emotional attachments such as unconditional love or self-sacrifice people can make to save those they love. If you take saga as a whole, after the events of the PT, Yoda and Obi-Wan soften their stance on the importance of families but they're still dogmatic because they can't believe Vader can come back from the dark side or that Luke can have feeling for his villainous father. Well, we know that Luke and Anakin prove them wrong.

 

No, what he literally says is that fear is the path to the dark side.

Yes, it is.

He never says that "attachment is wrong" or right. Again, you're blaming the movies for your own false conclusions.

No, I don't.

Compassion is an unconditional concern for others.

 

That's arguing semantics. Since, the Dark Side is wrong, the fear must be wrong. Unless you argue that Yoda thinks the Dark Side is a good thing. The way that scene is written, Yoda says the fear to lose your mother leads to anger, which leads to the Dark Side. Why else bring the fear for the loss of his mother into it?

My definition for compassion comes directly out of the dictionary, where does yours come from?

 

Also if attachment isn't wrong, why does Anakin say it is forbidden in AOTC? Apparently in your world it is normal to forbid things that are considered "right".

 

No, it's arguing what was said vs what wasn't.

There you are again with the "right" and "wrong".

Yoda doesn't use those terms to define the Force. What he means is that fear clouds your judgement and influences your actions. The consequences of those actions (if not the actions themselves) are bad.

Which is what happened.

Oxford's and my own knowledge.

How many times do I have to mention your own flawed logic of using "right" and "wrong" when none of the characters do so?

 

The portrayal of the internal struggle is big reason why I like the PT. Anakin doesn't become a Sith so he can rock a black cape, he does so because his own struggles with isolation and longing are amplified by a (false) promise of unnatural power. In the end he gets the power, but not what he specifically wants the power for. Layers of inner conflict there.

 

Attachment isn't "right" or "wrong." It's just dangerous. It's at odds with the Jedi philosophy of universal compassion for all beings.

You're not going to get kicked out of the Jedi Order for fleetingly feeling a forbidden emotion. But you can't allow yourself to be controlled by those emotions. You have to be strong enough to recognize when you're becoming too attached, and to draw back.

 

That's all semantics: wrong, bad, dangerous. It is not considered a good thing. It is forbidden after all.

 

Which is what happened in a poorly written set of movies. No normal person would make such an argument, that missing your mother would lead to a bad outcome. It is simply a poorly written sequence, like many in this trilogy.

 

Your inability to understand the obvious doesn't make them poorly written.

That's not the argument at all. Once again you blame your own limitation on the movies.

Read above.

 

Facepalm.
I guess you missed the whole Shmi's death and Tusken massacre/ Anakin's confession scene in AOTC.

 

You are contradicting yourself. First you say that's what happened, then you say that's not the argument. Which is it? Either fearing to loose your mother leads to the Dark Side aka bad things or it doesn't. IMO nobody sane would make that argument to a child.

 

I mean, Dooku's path presents an interesting parallel to Luke's ultimatum in Empire Strikes Back. As much as I'd have loved to see more of a backstory for Dooku, his intentions remain the same. He looks past the corruptible aspects of the Dark Side and sees it simply as a means to greater good. Just like Vader, he believed that peace could be achieved through this power. In the beginning, Dooku was actually genuine with his intentions, going as far as negotiating with Kenobi and wanting the Jedis' input.

I'll admit that The Phantom Menace didn't set the Sith up in the terms you described. But at the same time, it wasn't necessary at this point in the story. It was only in Attack of the Clones that we explore the temptation aspect of the Dark Side, and that you don't have to be fully evil to embrace some of its qualities. The Phantom Menace was a little more black and white and mainly dealt with explaining who the Sith were, without going into needless detail.

 

Yes, but those aspects of the difference between the Dark and the Light are never really explored, except through very superficial fortune cooky like statements, which seems a pretty large ommission in a trilogy that attempts to show someone's fall from grace.

 

All of Star Wars movies are thought provoking because they don't spell things for you. You can infer a lot by what the characters say, don't say and do or don't do. So maybe Lucas is not the best writer and sometimes he's deliberately vague but he's not stupid. There's a lot to think about here.

 

Your argument is based on false premises.

He says that fear is the path to the dark side, which is true. You're implying a contradiction that doesn't exist.

What argument? Anakin asked what does his feelings, fear and attachment have to do with his potential Jedi training, and Yoda explained that to him. Like I said, you can't blame the movies for your own limited ability to understand them.