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"Faith in your apprentice, misplaced may be"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by _Sublime_Skywalker_, May 9, 2007.

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  1. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    Are you being serious? Please, tell me you're not serious!
     
  2. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Did you even read the opening post of that thread? Palpatine is technically not lying. He comments on his fondness of democracy because he loves how he has been able to use it for his own ends. Palpatine loves the idea that an entire political infrastructure was already in place and was flawed enough to be exploited and perverted. When he says he loves democracy and the Republic, he's essentially saying that he loves how stupid and gullible people can be and how easy they make it for him. See? He deceives, but he doesn't lie. He told the people what they wanted to hear, knowing they'd interpret it incorrectly, while still managing to render a truthful statement. This is an important part of the mythological fabric of SW. I think that Palpatine / Sidious is the living embodiment of the Dark Side. The Dark Sides of our nature cannot lie, but they are capable of deceiving us if we let them.
     
  3. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    He LURVED democracy and the Republic. They were the very mechanisms which enabled him to gain absolute control of the galaxy. In fact they handed it to him.
     
  4. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    I had this wonderful explanation in my head, then I turned the page and found this fabulous synopsis that reflected my own POV. Cryo is far more eloquent than I, so with all appologies to him I'll say he summed it up nicely with this:

    Basically, it was like taking candy from a baby. I mean the dude was THEE Dark Lord of the Sith and he... HUNG OUT WITH THE JEDI in his office half the time!! For the love of Leia's metal bikini, can you get more BOSS than that? Sorry... lost myself there for a moment.


    I agree, Palpatine pulled a Ben Kenobi over the Jedi... the Republic... the Galaxy... and the fans.
    He told us the truth from his POV.

    Yes.
    And Yoda told us the truth as well, "Hard to see the Dark Side is."
     
  5. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    He lied with "I have the power to save the one you love!" I mean even Palpatine stopped saying it once Anakin had turned it switched to "To cheat death is a power only one as achieved, but I am certain that if we work together, we can discover his secret."
     
  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    SithStarSlayer, you da man! [face_pumpkin] Seriously, thanks. :-B

    Master Starwalker: Don't do this to me! DON'T DO THIS TO ME! ACK! I think what's going on there is that Palpidious is saying that the power to end Anakin's troubles rests in the Dark Side. Not in using the Dark Side, but in knowing it: "Know the power of the Dark Side, the power to save Padme." Palpidious' other line is more of a con. I think he's talking about himself, only superficially including Anakin (as he does a lot in TPM towards Padme). And his remark about only one achieving the power to cheat death is true: Qui-Gon Jinn.
     
  7. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Ummm.... Darth Vader anyone? Sidious saved him from dying. You can't possibly be more jacked-up than being: armless, legless, lungless, and hairless with 9TH degree burns to 100% of whats left of your body.

    I would suggest to you, Master Starwalker... that Darth Sidious indeed had the knowledge, and thus had the power to cheat certain death.

    Without him, there is no Darth Vader.

    No worries.
    I don't agree with too many people 'round here cuz I ain't no gusher! I get em mad enough to wanna [face_beatup] me up. :p But you seem to see things in a manner I often relate to, although I am more extreme in some cases.[face_shhh] I just like examining all three sides of the Star Wars coin... the good, the rediculous and the sublime.;)
     
  8. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    That's wrong. Sidious putting his hand on Vader was the only time we see him showing actual care for another individual. That's all it was. Sidious had no such power to cheat death at that point. Even in Dark Lord he comments he needs to find the power. Vader couldn't die. He was the Chosen One. He had to complete his destiny before he died. The Force kept him alive. I'd argue Anakin, on his raw knowledge of dark side power discovered Plagueis's secret before Palpatine did anything with the Force to help Anakin survive.
     
  9. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Yet Sith are unable to achieve what Qui-Gon did as it takes a complete selflessness thus they can't discover it in the context Palpatine used.

    Assuming Vader used the Force and not just his will to survive I agree.
     
  10. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    There is more spin going on in here than there is in my washing machine on a fast cycle.[face_laugh]

    Palpatine is a Sith - "lies, deciet, creating mistrust are his ways now".

    The Sith are evil, the Empire is bad and the Jedi didn't deserve to be wiped out. I'm not going to even begin to reply to some of the posts in here. They are just outrageous...and somewhat scary.:eek:
     
  11. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    Absolutely agreed, on every account. This seems to be the most logical and clever meaning, and so therefore it's what I chose to believe.

    As for Palpy putting his hand on Vader, I definitely don't believe he was keeping him from the death in the way he alluded to Anakin that Plagueis could. He spun that tale purely for Anakin's benefit. And I just love the irony of the one moment where Palpatine appears to give a damn about someone else will actually usher his downfall. For one tiny moment he cares about this kid, who is keeping himself alive by pure anger and hatred. Two emotions which will soon be directed at Palpatine himself and will eventually lead to that kid, not Vader, destroying him.
     
  12. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003

    Vader would be alive without the suit? I think not.

    The knowledge of the darkside to sustain life DOES NOT have to be some magic spell, Sith Alchemy is unnatural and powerful in its own right. Power isn't always in some wave of the hand, its also in the head. I am right when I say that Sidious saved Vader from certain death, because the fact is: no suit = no life. Palpatine told the truth, and he delivered on what he said in Opera... from his POV. Palpatine cared about Anakin, and later as Darth Sidious, he would save him from dying. The Force gets no mention in the script about sustaining Vader's life, but the med droids report to Sid's in the Novel that he survived the marriage of metal and flesh.
     
  13. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    Personally, I agree. However, one could argue that Vader couldn't die, under any circumstances, because he had not completed his destiny.
     
  14. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Just like Kenobi had to get out the pit against Maul.
     
  15. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    Yes, you really like to hammer that point across, don't you? For the record I think it would have been better, and more credible, to have dark side Obiwan to just cut Maul down, removing all the nonsense. The foreshadowing of the RotS is the stupidiest thing I ever saw. Lets have a duel that leaves no debate. All the duels, are debatable, with possibly Maul/Obiwan the worst.
     
  16. Juggernaut86

    Juggernaut86 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 7, 2005
    True only ones that arent debatable are Anakin and Obi Wan getting there asses whooped in AOTC and Anakin owning Dooku in ROTS

     
  17. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    People debate Dooku's loss by saying he wasn't trying his hardest.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    First, you cannot have dark side Obi-wan kill in anger. That negates the whole thing of him becoming a Jedi. The Council would know what he did. Second, it wasn't about forshadowing ROTS. It was showing why the Sith will lose. Because of arrogance and over confidence in their abilities. Third, putting Vader in the suit is not the same as what Palpatine talked to Anakin about earlier. What they're talking about was using the Force to stop death. Anakin was not dying when Palpatine found him. He was alive due to his own black will.
     
  19. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Yes that point is my second-favorite, next to exposing Midichlorians for the rubbish that they are. But now is not the place, I also would have liked to have seen him kill Maul in more believable manner. The whole leaping out the pit thing is rubbish to me, no matter the reason, explanation or excuse. Vader may have set his will against dying, but without Plapy flying in for the rescue Vader was a dead man.

    The suit = unnaturally extended life, IMO.
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Regardless though, it's said as a throwback to the legend of Darth Plagueis who used the Dark Side of the Force to save people's life, not a mechanical construction.
     
  21. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    What was said was:

    PALPATINE: "I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."

    See-- Palpatine didn't say he influence midi-chlorians to sustain life. He paused and then spoke of knowledge of the darkside being able to just that.
    Knowledge of the dark side was definitely used to create Vader. Later, in his office, he spoke of the 'ability to cheat death' which means live forever or eternal life. That doesn't have anything to do with his ability to prolong life unnaturally with Sith-Alchemy, cybernetics and good oxygen pump.
     
  22. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Sith alchemy however isn't a Lucas creation and so while it may fit with EU brought in, there's no way Lucas intended it to mean that.
     
  23. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Well, in the Novel he was almost frantic as he worked on Vader in the flight back to the Capital. So much of the EU is weaved into the PT Forum its a part of the fabric now. If its canon to LFL, then its canon to me.
     
  24. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Hmm, maybe it wasn't technically a straight out lie, though it was still a completely purposeful deception making the semantics of if Palpatine ever lies pointless as he's still a 'liar.'

    There's also his line "I will not let this Repbulic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two. My negotiations will not fail."

    His negotiations of course did fail, and he knew they would given that he wanted the Clone Wars to start and propel him into power. There's also that he destroyed the Repbulic.
     
  25. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    His negotiations didn't fail--the reason he's not lying here is because NOBODY, including us, knows what his negotiations are. It's deceptive, but his negotiations are with Dooku, who he's leading. Of course they don't fail.
     
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