"Faith in your apprentice, misplaced may be"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by _Sublime_Skywalker_, May 9, 2007.

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  1. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    The implication in the sentence is his negotiations to stop the war won't fail, which of course they did by design. It's a lie. You also didn't address the fact that he destroyed the Republic he wouldn't let 'be split in two.'
  2. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    His negotiations didn't fail. "The negotiations never took place."

    But he certainly negotiated other people's emotions and his way through the political infrastructure! And Palpatine also represents Lucas: his negotiations through the complex story of SW did not fail. He made ROTS and completed the saga.

    Palpatine / Sidious also didn't let the Republic get split in two. He shaped it into the Empire and then dominated the other systems through tyranny and fear.
  3. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    They did though between Sidious and Tyrannus as there had to be sometime when Sidious told Tyrannus his plans.

    Which isn't the type of negotitation the line refers to.

    Yet Palpatine did allow it to. The majority of Rebel leaders were current/former Republic Senators(Leia, Bail, Mon Mothma, etc.) so, Republic literally split into two groups, The Galactic Empire and The Alliance to Restore the Republic.
  4. MisterVader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2006
    star 3
    But he doesn't let the Republic get split in two because he destroys it. I agree with his DECEPTION, and you're right in that sense. But the language itself is not that of a literal lie. What if he doesn't have negotiations to stop the split? In fact, he doesn't. His negotiations won't fail and don't because his negotiations have nothing to do with the split--well, they DO, but not in that way.

    "I will not let this Republic...be split in two" means that he won't let the Separatists "win," so to speak.

    "My negotiations will not fail" means that his negotiations (whatever they may be) won't fail, and he's right.

    And he doesn't "allow" the Alliance as a separate faction.
  5. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    They have directly to do with the split as if there were no negotiations going on with CIS leaders the Jedi wouldn't have simply accepted the comment.

    However, Palpatine did allow it to win.

  6. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Returning to an earlier avenue of discussion, which is hopefully close enough to the topic to be relevant:

    When Palpatine tells Anakin that he foresees him becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Yoda, I have asserted that Palpatine is not lying, even if he has a different definition in mind. I was going back through some of my files and came upon a quotation I'd saved from this very community. Although it doesn't literally apply in every sense (you'll see), I think the general spirit shines through:

    The rasp of conscience that Anakin perceives and finally reaches for on the second Death Star (literally: his second chance), the enrapturing obviousness of the truth, the towering magnanimity of his last act, and the profound depth of his gesture cloaked by the superficial simplicity of the visible act itself, is what sets him apart and allows the Force to finally be brought into balance. I think that this is what Lucas was using Palpatine to get at.
  7. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I posted this Cryo's other thread, but it fits with what Master Starwalker was talking about at the bottom of the last page.

    He actually is using reverse psychology on them, he is telling them what will happen: "It will come to war. You can't even see it. The Republic will fracture. You won't be able to stop it. I will find a way to profit from Amidala's survival. You Jedi will pay for it and your Chosen-One will personally collect the debt for me..."


    Everything he said had a hidden or a double meaning.
  8. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    Yoda simply knew that Kenobi was too powerful for Anakin.

    That was enough.

    Anything else is just speculation (not that there is anything wrong with that).
  9. Juggernaut86 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
  10. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Obviously Kenobi wasn't too powerful for Anakin. They just caught Vader at a bad time, he was so overwhelmed with his anger and his new power that he could barely keep it under control. Especially after the whole 'Padme betraying him to Obi Wan' conflict, Anakin was just lashing out and not paying attention to actual risks.

    Once again, overconfidence is a weakness. It's Vaders overconfidence that he's become so powerful that he can defeat Obi Wan who at the time is actually being rational. All in All, Vader survived and came back to own Kenobi. Infact with all logic, Kenobi would've been killed but continuity issues keep him alive.
  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin was more powerful but Obi Wan had more experince. Due to this Obi wan had much more control than Anakin. Anakin was just overcome by his emotions.
  12. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Also Obi Wan knew how to counterattack every move Anakin made. All in all, Obi Wan won by default because Vader had to be crippled and Obi Wan had to live to teach Luke. For rightful reasons, Anakin should've won the fight because the whole PT saga emphasizes how important he is and how powerful he is. Plus in the OT we're always hearing lines about Luke using his anger and hate to defeat your enemies but when Anakin does it he's overcome with all this new power and does not know how to control all the emotions that are flying at once.
  13. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Oh exactly, but that's why it's a lie. He's saying that it won't come to war when he knows and plans to make it come to war. He's saying he'll keep the Republic in-tact when he plans to break it.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anger and hate can be used to win a fight, but it must be tempered with control. Maul, Sidious and Tyranus are effective in combat because they do not lose control of themselves. They fight with a precise measure of control and rarely make the kinds of mistakes that Anakin did. Also, using the excuse that Anakin had to be crippled and Obi-wan had to live, isn't that good of an arguement for the outcome of their duel. Or any other PT duel. A screenwriter will choose to have a character live when outclassed by their opponet. If Lucas was making the films 1-6 and had Obi-wan beat the superior warrior in Anakin, what would your excuse be then?
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I wouldn't need an excuse for AnaVader because if they were made in order, Maul would've whacked Kenobi in TPM. :eek:

    ***

    Just messin, DS... :p
  16. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    All I'm saying is that Anakin should've been able to beat Obi Wan, and he would've if 1. Obi Wan didn't jump away from him and chop him when Anakin jumps up to keep fighting him. In my opinon, that move wasn't very honorable to Ani's and Obi's past. I'm not saying Anakin was being a clean fighter, but he's a sith and theres a large difference between Jedi and Sith, especially with the way they fight.

    And 2. If continuity issues weren't involved. If the movies were made 1-6 Obi Wan would either be decided as Anakins teacher or not, whether he lived or died would be up to Lucas himself.
  17. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    In a fight you do what you have to do win. There's also nothing that says jumping away and then getting your opponent when he's coming to you is dishonorable. It's certainly no more dishonorable than jumping up and killing Maul.

    True, but I still think using the excuse of "The Original Trilogy said it" is flawed given that there also has to be an in-universe reason, and they've been given in both the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin cases and Obi-Wan vs. Maul cases. Anakin was inexperienced and cocky so he lost, whereas Maul just got overconfident.
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, but the issue is HOW Maul died. The novel explains his wonderful connection to the Living Force, as seen through Jinn's eyes. Then, all of a sudden he loses it? He can't sense the saber being called to Kenobi's hand? Maul has time to turn around, but doesn't raise his saber? "Kenobi's leap" was more "telegraphed" than AnaVader's fateful move.

    And that isn't the worst of it! How can Kenobi leap "tall buildings in a single bound" during TPM, while AnaVader (who has more midichlorians and is using the darkside mind you) can't jump twenty feet? The climaxes to each duel ARE/WERE contrived at best. Both scenes appeared to me as being: "made to fit the story."

    An obvious result of being written out of order. So saying: "They both ended as such because of the OT" is a valid point from my POV.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Maul let go of his connection to the Living Force. If one isn't making an active connection to the Force and the Living Force aspect, then they're going to not sense everything. Maul didn't sense that Obi-wan was planning what he was doing, because he stopped focusing on the moment and paid for it. When he tried to re-establish the connection, he couldn't do it quickly enough to sense what Obi-wan was doing. In the case of Anakin, he wasn't trying to jump all the way beyond Obi-wan. He was trying to land right behind him and that's why he paid the price. Obi-wan never disconnected himself to the Living Force until the fight was over. Maul was no longer aware of everything, while Kenobi was.
  20. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
  21. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    The Sith always die because they get cocky and then are humiliated, I don't see how that's any worse than Vader throwing Palpatine down a pit given that Palpatine was clearly in control and had Luke dead to rights before Vader kills Palpatine, even though in the previous movies Palpatine had no problem reading Anakin's mind.

    Because Vader was going for a kill imo by trying to strike Obi-Wan as he jumped over him. I think Vader could have made the jump, but he got too cocky and cut it too close, that's all my opinion though. I really want to know what Gillard choreographed that last part as.

  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Palpatine deserved the shaft.
    Maul and AnaVader got shafted.
  23. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Why? They were certainly no less cocky and overconfident than he was? We also see no proof that either are more powerful than him with only Vader being cited as equal to him.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    It's not dishonorable. Obi-wan wanted to end the fight and that was the only way. If he let Anakin land, he was going to be driven back into the lava and he would lose his life. There is honor in that. There is no honor in fighting or killing an opponet who is helpless.
  25. Yodas_Got_Bed_Head Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2004
    star 2

    Reminds me of a Sith Lord who won't need a hat or gloves for the winter...Thanks to The Chosen One.
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