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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

[FanFic] Silencing Opinions in Writer's Resource

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Darth-Seldon, Jul 23, 2004.

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  1. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    What's put me (and I believe other people) off, was the vicious tone that many of the post in that (and here) has taken. Demanding the resignation of the FF mods? "The Mods SUCK!"... things like that. We had a Fan Force meeting last night where a couple of the members are regular writers who don't venture into he FFR forum very often any more (and who know my long time activities of *cough* offering a dissenting opinion) burst into fits of laughter when I told them that in the latest debauchle, I was actually on the side of the administration...

    But anyway, for those of you who want to see 'more examples' of the grey area, I have issued a 'challange' of sorts in the Mature themes thread. I'm hoping to see a myriad of short examples from anything from puritian pure to the PG limit of the boards. That way people can eventually (hopefully) check back at that thread at a later date and see a broad spectrum of how other writers work said same themes into a fic.

    Just a thought.



     
  2. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    The thing is, some of the users were asking about things that aren't really covered in the FAQ. The FAQ covers sex and violence with the high marks, but there are other subjects that can up a fic's rating. THESE are the "grey areas" people are wondering about. I remember at least one user asking about subjects such as death and infidelity without receiving an answer. Those particular topics aren't even MENTIONED in the FAQ, so it was definitely a fair question.
     
  3. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    But again, there are literally hundreds of examples that might fit directly or indirectly under the guidelines.

    Let's use this example:

    Say someone wanted to learn how to ride a bike in order to go compete in the Tour de France.

    Now, I could show that person pictures of Lance Armstrong all day long, but beyond a basic illustration of form, it isn't going to make them a better competitor.

    There comes a point when you simply have to jump on that bicycle and start riding to the best of your ability.

     
  4. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Again, if you have a question about a specific thing that you feel is in the grey areas, ASK THE QUESTION. We're not mind-readers. We can't go into your brain and pluck the question out. We can't answer it until you pose it.

    You can yell and scream about injustice all you want, but we can't provide answers for questions that don't exist yet.

    If you have a question about something you don't feel is covered by the FAQ, go over to FFR and ask it. Do it politely. We'll do our best to answer the question. But don't demand answers for general areas, because, as we've stated time and again, WE CAN'T ANSWER THOSE!

    And a brief reminder. If you want us to treat you respectably, you have to do the same to us. Calling for our heads and saying "MODS SUCK" over a silly thing like the FAQ is beyond ridiculous. You want us to treat you fairly, you must treat us fairly. We are human just as you are. We are not machines here to do your every bidding.


    Dana
     
  5. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    The thing is, they were asking the question. Right there in the thread.

    And where in that post did I use the word injustice of suck? :confused:
     
  6. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    But the thread was not the place for the question to be asked. That thread was a reminder only, not a place for discussion of it.


    Dana
     
  7. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Maybe it's just me, but the logical reaction to "Keep it PG" is "Okay, no problem. Could I please double check that this topic is PG appropriate, so I can edit if it's not?"

    I still want to know where I used the word injustice or suck.
     
  8. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    You didn't. But others have. I replied in general to the thread at large, not just your post.

    Dana
     
  9. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    "If you aren't that intelligent, contact a FanFic mod who will do what they can to increase your understanding and intelligence."

    Great KK, in this thread which deals with a mod not respecting opinions you are able to insult us. Who says that mod can help us with intelligence? Are you now making fun of people with disablities who are not as lucky as us to have a good mind? An admin making fun of those less fortunate. Interesting is it not?

    -Seldon
     
  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    ou can yell and scream about injustice all you want, but we can't provide answers for questions that don't exist yet.

    This is part of the problem, I think.

    I've seen a lot of "us vs. them" going on, from both moderators and regular members (both toward each other and between regular members).

    "You're doing this, you're not doing that, they're doing this, they're not doing that, you need to do something this way, you shouldn't do it that way." And so on.

    Moderators are part of the community they moderate, and should take care not to come across condescendingly or from "up on high". This breeds contempt and animosity, which can overshadow any good points being made (both immediately and in the future).

    Calling for our heads and saying "MODS SUCK" over a silly thing like the FAQ is beyond ridiculous

    First, one person did that. Second, that anger wasn't merely over the FAQ and this one issue. It was the result of built-up feelings from many issues, I believe. The FAQ and related issues is not "silly", nor is the desire to be treated thoughtfully and respectfully by moderators and the administration.

    People are not upset over just the FAQ, and I'm increasingly thinking that point is being missed or dodged. Members want to be listened to above all else, even if they're not agreed with. Sometimes, a moderator can inadverdently come across disrespectfully, condescendingly or otherwise negatively and not realize it. It may be helpful to re-read a post and ask yourself how other people are going to react to it. Get outside opinions, including from people you might not like a lot (but still respect).

    This set of issues isn't just about the issues themselves, it's also about how they're handled. The final result will affect other things in the future.
     
  11. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Great KK, in this thread which deals with a mod not respecting opinions you are able to insult us. Who says that mod can help us with intelligence? Are you now making fun of people with disablities who are not as lucky as us to have a good mind? An admin making fun of those less fortunate. Interesting is it not?

    Look at what I said in context.
    We trust that each of you is intelligent enough to figure some things out on your own without having to ask for guidance on every last paragraph. If you aren't that intelligent, contact a FanFic mod who will do what they can to increase your understanding and intelligence.
    Would you have prefered that I had said "has enough common sense" instead of "is intelligent enough"? It's all the same principle and concept. We expect to not have to hold users' hands through every step of the process. That seems to be what you are asking.

    How hard is it to simply PM a mod to ask your question? Or use the already-established thread that Breezy linked to earlier if you want input from other users? Why do you insist that the mods outline in excruciating detail exactly where the line is? Can't you see how impossible that is? You can't write something and then say that it is the absolute limit, no matter what, because there is no way to quantifiably demonstrate where others fall in relation to it.

    There is no example that they could give that would perfectly demark the line. There will always be gray areas. That's why we have moderators instead of a bot. The whole point is to have a living, breathing, thinking person who can make those judgement calls.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  12. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I agree with KnightWriter, it seems he understands the whole situation perfectly. We are raising issues that we are worried that your not paying attention and listening to us. I could care less if you disagree. Instead of talking about it you keep dismissing us. That is a major issue here.

    It seems all the mods are taking everything so personal. They are thinking we are attacking how they handle things. So they are coming across like they could care less what we think, which is the major issue in the thread!

    -Seldon
     
  13. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    It seems all the mods are taking everything so personal. They are thinking we are attacking how they handle things. So they are coming across like they could care less what we think, which is the major issue in the thread!

    Okay, your'e not attacking the way the moderators do anything? You're not attacking the moderators? Let's review.

    There have been several comments against moderators, including one instance of "MODS SUCK" that have been edited out of this very thread. As for the things not edited out:

      It would have been better if we could have been told that in the original thread, but you know some moderator wanted to lock it before any questions where answered.


      This thread is about a certain mod silencing opinions.
      And what happens in the thread? That same certain moderator is editing multiple users posts. A form of silencing! Amazing is it not?


      I can see now how we're heading into a very Ep. III fake. We've got our tyrant, and we have the people who wants things better. And the mods? They were supposed to be the Jedi.

      This problem could also be solved by replacing the current moderators. While I have been friends with some of the moderators and others in this fray, I think perhaps moderators who are more experienced in their respective forums and who are a little more open-minded towards other people's suggestions could be in order.

      These power trips must stop, before theforce.net fanfiction forums shut down completely, and that is something that no one would like to see happen.


      Please, past mods and current mods...Don't think of my post as an attack on you. You volunteer your time and effort and I'm grateful for it. I only have a problem with maybe three or four mods on the entire site.


      But most of all, we need moderators who are willing to listen to the users above all, instead of sitting back and defending their own positions without any thought towards the positions of others.


      the owners = the emperor
      the mods = darth vader
      the rest of the people in this thread = the rebels


      Opinions have indeed been silenced over there. I no longer voice mine in threads because of the short, curt rudeness with which some of my friends have been treated. Certain mods seem to think of themselves as divine authority.



    Well. That all certainly looks pretty bad to me.


    Okay, so . . .

    We are listening. we have listened to everything. We have discussed everything.

    But we haven't given the answers you're looking for, we're not going to, and you're not happy about that. I'm sorry, but we've told you what we can do about this. At this point, you are the ones who are not listening to us.



    Dana
     
  14. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    We are raising issues that we are worried that your not paying attention and listening to us.

    That's not it though.

    There is always room for improvement on either side, but you still have to be realistic.

    I could walk into a bank today and demand a loan for a new Ferrari.

    They might initially listen to me, but no amount of pleading on my part is going to get the bank to give me a loan for a car that I can't afford.

    Notice how the bank is bound by reality, and not by their personal feelings, even as they aren't giving me what I want?

    Everyone is listening to you here. However, that doesn't automatically mean:

    1)You will be agreed with.

    2)The things you are asking for are even possible.

    For example, you asked for a special forum. Reality dictates that it is not possible.

    No amount of "can you hear me now?" questions are going to change that.

    You asked for concrete rules that could be provided to you.

    The basic nature of fanfic writing prevents such concrete rules from being provided. However, any specifc instance can be addressed by a mod.

    No amount of "can you hear me now" questions are going to change that.

    If you have any other questions related to the topic, instead of complaining that you aren't being heard, just come out and ask them..

    Because, to me, it seems like you are complaining for the right to complain, but you aren't asking anything beyond that.
     
  15. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Dantana, is there anything the Fan Fiction moderators could have handled better, or could do better in the future, or do you feel that your part of the administration is 100% the way it needs to be.
     
  16. red rose knight

    red rose knight Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2001
    One of the reasons the PG, Not PG-13 thread was brought up was because there has been a proliferation of stories that have in their very first post this announcement: Rated PG-13. It suggests a lot of people don?t realize the boards are rated PG.

    Yes, there are some stories that do drift into the PG-13 (and above) realm, but they are a vast minority. If a story is brought to question (usually by another user) then we mods?as a group?look it over and decide if and where it went over the line. It?s not left to the opinion of just one person.

    As far as discussion of topics, in the original thread NarundiJedi brought up some interesting topics, but I wouldn?t treat them as some FAQ defining thing, but rather as topics of discussion no different than threads on burnout, describing colors, the Mature themes thread and language in the GFFA. Wouldn?t discussions about death/dying and infidelity be better treated as a friendly exchange of ideas and writing experiences rather than wrapped up in some policy making thread? If you are wanting to turn it into a policy discussion, the answer is likely no, but if you want to discuss it like so many other topics, discuss away.

    As far as locking and redirecting questions to other threads, why not? Wouldn?t it be better to redirect a question about Anakin?s height to the Anakin Characterization thread where it might have some longevity? Instead of down the road someone asking the same question or hunting through a ton of threads looking for that question under the title ?A curious question?. Why let a few posts of interesting discussion sink after a few days?

    I know that doesn?t satisfactorily answer your questions, and I doubt anything I could say will, but that is what I have.

    Taking my mod had off and speaking as a user and writer (who doesn?t have a lot of time for writing between here and the job that is eating my life), I would rather see writing discussion threads on various topics than threads designed to lay down what goes in the FAQ/rules/policy. They tend to be more welcoming when it is just about the writing. But more than that, I don?t want more ?official? examples because it just makes things more restrictive whether they were meant to be or not. And invariably, they won?t be anymore helpful and may raise even more doubts asking for more clarification.
     
  17. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Nice post, rose :). That's the sort of thing I know I'd be looking for more if I was a Fan Fiction regular.
     
  18. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    KW - See, once again, you choose me as the one to question. Why don't you ask Herman, Renata, or Rose? They've all spoken up here, so it couldn't possibly be because I'm the only fanfic mod who's spoken up. Why is it always ME?

    As for your question . . .

    At this moment in time, yes. I have a job, and I do it.



    Dana
     
  19. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    KW - See, once again, you choose me as the one to question. Why don't you ask Herman, Renata, or Rose?

    I haven't found anything in particular from Herman to question, and I was partly agreeing with him with regard to the issue of gray area earlier in the thread. I haven't found anything to specifically question Renatta on (though I did quote from a post of hers yesterday, expressing my own thoughts on the quoted sentence), and I just now expressed my thoughts on rose's last post. Your posts are generally concise and easier for me to pick a question from.

    Is there a problem with questioning you?

    You have a strong presence here in Communications now, which puts any moderator in the spotlight for questioning. No one (moderator and member alike) can expect to post without being questioned, sometimes repeatedly. I've no negative intent, and I'm honestly just curious for your answers :).

    At this moment in time, yes. I have a job, and I do it.

    That wasn't my question, though.

    Do you feel that there's anything the Fan Fiction moderators could have handled better, or do you feel that your part of the administration is going the way it should be.

    It's a general question, and not about you personally. Instead, it's about the moderating of Fan Fiction as a whole, with particular (but not entire) attention to the current issues being discussed.

    Edit: So I don't single anyone out, I invite each Fan Fiction moderator to answer that question :). I'm most interested in what everyone has to say.
     
  20. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    1. You can't hold what one regular user says against all regular users say. I have never said "Mods Suck." You can't just blame us all for the actions of one. I never said the mods are Darth Vader...comet did take it up with him.

    2. no administration is working 100%. Who ever thinks that is blinded by ideals and such. No matter how smooth things run it is never at its 100% best, that is impossible. There are always things which have flaws or need to be debated. If this was at 100% why would so many people have concerns?

    3. Dantana why did you not want to answer the question? You always try to act like "ask someone else." You are a mod so when someone asks a question about what is happening in you forum you should take the opportunity to answer. It has nothing to do with other people. It has to do with you explaining what is happening in your area.

    4. There are major issues that need to be talked about here. Yes I thought Herman had no right to lock those threads. Yes there have been anti-mod comments. As a mod you have to go above that and try to approach it with a clear head. You have to ignore personal attacks and rise to the occasion.

    That is just my POV.

    -Seldon
     
  21. Dantana Skywalker

    Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2002
    I wasn't avoiding the question. I answered it. If you don't like my answer, fine.

    I stand beside my fellow moderators 100%.

    Dana
     
  22. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I was wondering, if I could get the permission of the mods and Breezy, of course, if I could continue to ask my questions about topics like death and infidelity in her mature topic discussion thread.

    See, I have no real interest in writing about ladies of the night because they don't fit into my framework. Is there any way the thread could be used to address topics as they come up? I don't expect to get any moderator opinions, but even the opinions of other users on such topics would be helpful. I don't think I'm one to cross over the line with what I've written, but if I heard the takes of others on mature topics then I might be able to handle them with better style, which is what I think Breezy's thread is all about: learning how to write the topics within the guidelines.

    So, Breezy, mods, do I have your blessing?

    Jae O:)
     
  23. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    NarundiJedi Well, I wanted to do a week of each and I do have that little challange going at the moment. But Can we save that for next Sunday night? I'll even change the header as this is a subject I too want to explore in more detail and that way we can go one topic at a time.

    Edit

    Well to clarify, the thread itself is for 'Mature themes', and I intended to change the current topic roughly every week.
    Next week, probably a variation on death, then infidelity and betrayal... but I'm always open to useful ideas!
     
  24. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    Well I would expect you to stand with your other moderators 100%.

    Do you think the forum is running at its 100% best?

    -Seldon
     
  25. Miana Kenobi

    Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2000
    Seldon, as far as I am reading into it and comprehending what you are saying, what you are basically looking for is a Utopian board, aye? You find me any board or institution that is run at 100%, and I might take your thoughts into consideration.

    Give the mods a break. They're trying their best to run the place and keep everything in order, and with you nit-picking every single thing they do, they will have to spend more time replying to your every provoke instead of doing their job. [face_plain]
     
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