"Far more than we have been"- Jedi and the Galactic Alliance

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Dec 28, 2005.

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  1. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    The Swarm War, pg. 34

    Luke smiled broadly. "I'm glad. We couldn't afford to lose you Corran. I don't think you realize just how valuable you are to the order. The Jedi do have a duty to support the Galactic Alliance- far more than we have been- and nobody represents that viewpoint better than you."

    Now, before I begin, this thread does not have anything to do with Cal Omas and his relationship to the Jedi. I am talking about the Jedi relationship to the Alliance on a higher level. It is becoming obvious that the key to a stable galaxy will require two things- a democratic republic in the form of the Alliance, and a organized and powerful Jedi Order. The Old Republic lasted for "a thousand generations" under the care of the Jedi Order. The New Republic fell, in part, due to a weak and fragmented Jedi Order, as well as their own obvious governmental problems. It is becoming clear that the direction we are headed in towards the Legacy of the Force era will show that the only way things will work out is if the Alliance and the Jedi stand side by side.

    Del Rey has made it clear that the Alliance is the galactic government in the upcoming era of LOTF, which will span at least a century. Thanks to Troy Denning in The Swarm War, we now have a organized and more stable Jedi Order, which hopefully will be prepared for the challenges it will face in the upcoming series.

    So, I am curious to see what the other members of this forum think about the prospects of the galaxy with the Alliance and Jedi working together. The upcoming series is going to be based around a growing struggle in the Alliance, between its federal government and some more independent members. While some may think that a new Empire or Confederacy in in the works, it will become apparent that an old enemy of the Order is causing all the problems...

    --Adm. Nick
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    I get the book tomorrow, but I am spoiled, so here my opinion:

    Jedi should be independent from government completely, just like Luke wants it. But nevertheless they work together and help each other. But not one side demanding, or ordering the other around. They are equal partners, not one above the other. Not Jedi controling republic, and not Republic controling Jedi. so like it is after swarm war is best, I think. though the terms on how to do working together with the alliance better, have still to be found out in legacy. there is no dominating anymore then. and jedi serve the force and all governments, not only the alliance. this will be difficult for the government to understand and accept. but it will be done with the right rulers in place. though, I see more trouble not coming from the jedi order, but rather from the governmental side of the deal. it is still to republican... it should be MORE democracy than it is. much more.
  3. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    Well, it won't be long before the Jedi fall back into their rut they got themselves into with the Old Republic. Once the first few generations pass (if they even last that long), the original concept will be blurred enough that they will become a part of the Alliance government.

    It's inevitable.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly what happened to the Old Jedi Order, long ago.
  4. BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Master

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    I find it funny that Luke is saying that the Jedi shouldn't be a government and have the power to form and influence policy, yet this is exactly what does in the novel...
  5. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 18, 2005
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    Every returning character except Han, Leia, Threepio, Alema, and Saba in Dark Nest has been acting so bizarrely out of character that it honestly doesn't surprise me.

    I'd certainly like to see Corran's motive for wanting to tie the Jedi that tightly to the Galactic Alliance after the not-much-different New Republic led the galaxy in kicking him in the face after Ithor.
  6. ConservativeSoldier Jedi Knight

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    Oct 1, 2005
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    That's not what Luke said. Luke said that Jedi shouldn't be making policy. Hence the reason for an independent Jedi Council that can give advice to the policy-makers if there is the need.
  7. ConservativeSoldier Jedi Knight

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    You may have just answered your own question there, Kudzu.
  8. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Master Corran Horn is a former Rogue pilot and a longtime defender of the New Republic. He may be a Jedi, but he also was a soldier. As a result of this, he undoubtedly believes that a strong connection between the Alliance and the Jedi will result in a more stable and peaceful galaxy. Personally, I could not agree with Horn more.

    --Adm. Nick
  9. BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Master

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    That's not what Luke said. Luke said that Jedi shouldn't be making policy. Hence the reason for an independent Jedi Council that can give advice to the policy-makers if there is the need.

    It's the same thing. The Jedi are an open and powerful force of change in the galaxy. When push comes to shove, it will be the Jedi who determine the outcome of any major event...everybody knows that. Therefore, governmental policies and edicts will be mad with their potential reactions in mind. When the government does come to the Jedi...sorry, I mean LUKE...he automatically knows that they'll listen to whatever he has to say, because they really can't afford not to; they'll be so in awe of his legend and threat that he'll ultimately get his way, which can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. If you want to look at an admittedly extreme allegory, think of Rasputin and the Romanovs.
  10. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    Nick, there are two ways a Jedi Order and Galactic Alliance will go if they work hand-in-hand...

    A. The Galactic Alliance does what the Jedi want.
    B. The Galactic Alliance does what is best for them, not for the Force.

    Now then, we've seen quite clearly that the needs of the Jedi in terms of following the will of the Force do not mesh well with the interests of the Galactic Alliance. In fact, most times they are outright contradictory. The Jedi, being who they are, really don't have a choice in deviating from their philisophical doctrine of adherence to a divine influence beyond anyone's comprehension. A government, on the other hand, can if pressured to do so.

    Being heavily armed and trained wizards that have shown previously to go to extreme lengths to get their way, it seems incredibly probably that the Jedi will persuade the Federation to obey the "counseling" of the Jedi Order.

    The "democratic republic" you so love would become nothing more than a theocracy. A puppet of the Jedi Order.
  11. ConservativeSoldier Jedi Knight

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    It's not the same thing at all. Luke's "legend" hasn't stopped Cal Omas from putting his boot down, and it's certainly obvious from both the NJO series and the DN Trilogy that Omas and many of the Senators don't believe the Jedi understand the finer points of politics. Look how easily Omas played the Jedi Masters in The Joiner King and The Unseen Queen.

    The Jedi are relegated to giving advise, instead of being the decision-makers. And that's only when the Senate thinks it necessary to get the Jedi opinion on an issue.

  12. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, suffice it to say, I strongly disagree. It is possible for two organizations, in this case the New Jedi Order and the Galactic Alliance, to disagree yet still try to find some common ground. No one is saying that the Alliance will become a puppet of the Jedi or vice versa. In real life politics, countries and organizations can disagree, even strongly, but still retain a close relationship or bond. The Galactic Alliance can do whatever it feels best in a certain situation, even if the Jedi disagree. The point is that even if the Jedi disagree that the bond between the two does not have to be broken.

    Furthermore, the Jedi will not be doing anything to manipulate the government, unless the situation is extremely drastic. The one major instance of this occured when the New Republic was on the brink of falling apart. Its leaders were scattered, its fleets unorganized, and its former capital occupied. In other words, things were plain ****y. By assisting Cal Omas to be elected Chief of State, they hereby assured that the galacy would not fall into turmoil. And, say whatever you want of Omas, but the Alliance managed to win the Yuuzhan Vong war and maintain the peace afterwards. Things may not be perfect, but they sure as hell are alot better than they had been in awhile.

    Mark my words. By the end of the nine book series Legacy of the Force, we will see how the Jedi and the Alliance will have managed to work together to secure peace for the galaxy, defeating whatever threat she ( ;) ) is trying to start.

    --Adm. Nick
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Which honestly is the ideal government and would be a paradise unending.
  14. EwokStromboli Jedi Knight

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    That's probably rather irrelevant; I don't recall Corran ever expressing much consternation in the New Republic's role in his exile. It certainly was the proximate cause of it, but he's the type who accepts responsibility and then lets the guilt eat at him.

    As others have said, Corran's a military man. He likes order (and orders) and stronger leaders and, I'd imagine, clear-cut policy. The Krytos Trap - Bacta War era demonstrated that he'll defy leaders and orders, but that goes to the legitimacy of them.

    Well, that's in-universe. :) In reality, I think Denning just settled for simplistic confrontation---and picked Corran to represent "collective order" and Kyp to represent "individualized conscience." Neither is necessarily far-fetched in principle, but Denning did take these archetypal positions to absurd lengths. And that's why Corran and Kyp behaved like kids in the trilogy.
  15. Master_Uxi Jedi Knight

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    The Old Republic lasted 25,000 years only due to the Jedi. Granted it was on it's nth iteration but it would been extinguished long before Palpatine without the Jedi holding it up.

    That said, I do sympathesize with Kyp's camp. It's only natural that, like the Senate, the Jedi would be wary of central authority. They simply need some more institutional checks and balances. Jedi should definitely figure in the equation, in at least the Watchman role with those Jedi taking on those duties given proper legal jurisdiction at least at some level. It would empower the NJO with legal authority and also allow them to integrate with other law enforcement and at the same time give them necessary schooling and training and rounding them out even further.
  16. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    Charlemagne19: Hardly. The Jedi beliefs work well enough for themselves, but with the fate of quadrillions in the balance...not so much, especially not in a galaxy so utterly ruined as the one they're in now.

    Even then, it wouldn't take too long for them to simply assume a dictatorial control justified by some kind of genetic/racial superiority doctrine. Eventually, the Jedi would transform into Sith.

    Master_Uxi: It's funny, though, how the Republic was almost destroyed on at least four occasions because of the Jedi.

    Without the Jedi, there would have been no Sith.
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Not if they stayed true to the Force.
  18. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    Which they wouldn't...
  19. EwokStromboli Jedi Knight

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    Fascinating.

    Resolved: It would have been "better" for the galaxy had the Republicos "Outbound Flighted" the Jedi a long, long time ago?

    (Okay, maybe bring them out of mothballs when the YV come a'callin'. ;) )
  20. Master_Uxi Jedi Knight

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    Just because some can't live up to ideas doesn't mean those ideals should be abandoned.

    The Force is a constant in the Star Wars Universe. If there was no Jedi Order with the structure to restrain it's membership able to sense and wield the Force, the Republic would have fallen into tyranny from it's inception. At the Great Schism if not before.

    Note that the Sith species themselves were already out there even before they were found by the exiled dark Jedi. And the dark side circles had already gained ascendency. Their relationship with the Dark Lords was symbiotic.
  21. BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Master

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    It's not the same thing at all. Luke's "legend" hasn't stopped Cal Omas from putting his boot down, and it's certainly obvious from both the NJO series and the DN Trilogy that Omas and many of the Senators don't believe the Jedi understand the finer points of politics. Look how easily Omas played the Jedi Masters in The Joiner King and The Unseen Queen.

    The Jedi are relegated to giving advise, instead of being the decision-makers. And that's only when the Senate thinks it necessary to get the Jedi opinion on an issue.


    The only reason Omas is in office is thanks to Luke (re: DW). And he's caved every time Luke heavily disagrees with him (ie: Alpha Red, Yuuzhan'tar, the Ithorians, the Chiss etc.) And the Jedi knew exactly what Omas was doing in DN, as they explained, but they had no choice but to go along, partly due to necessity, but mostly because it was a convenient plot convention.
    And like I said before, even when Luke doesn't overtly influence decisions, his shadow is always there. They'll ask for his "official opinion", but anyone who knows about government knows that when a potential enemy is in a position of power, you're foolish not to factor them into your decisions.
  22. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    EwokStromboli: We're looking at the vast change of over 5,000 years of history. There's no telling what would have happened with the Vong.

    Master_Uxi:

    "The Force is a constant in the Star Wars Universe. If there was no Jedi Order with the structure to restrain it's membership able to sense and wield the Force, the Republic would have fallen into tyranny from it's inception."

    Nonsense. The Jedi Order didn't even exist as a religious group until hundreds of years after the initial formation of the Republic. Moreover, what could the Jedi possibly have done for the Republic that would have required their existence for the Republic's survival?

    "At the Great Schism if not before."

    The Great Schism is irrelevant to the early development of the Republic. That was a religious fued, not a political rebellion or military coup. It's the Jedi's decision at the end of this first religious war that causes the creation of the Sith in any form that's remotely dangerous to the Republic.

    "Note that the Sith species themselves were already out there even before they were found by the exiled dark Jedi. And the dark side circles had already gained ascendency. Their relationship with the Dark Lords was symbiotic."

    The Sith race was virtually conquered by the exiled Jedi. Without the interference of the Dark Lords, the Sith would have been no more dangerous than a weak, backwards state with no desire for conquest or revenge.

    All the wars of the ancient Republic were either caused by Sith, fallen Jedi, or proxies of the Sith.
  23. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

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    I think the ultimate problem here is that the galaxy can't survive peacefully with or without the Jedi. They maintain balance, but in many instances, they are ultimately what brings about the galactic downfall as well. And most likely, it's because they are - at the core - simply highly specialized and powerful beings who are still fundamentally "human." It might be a powerful idealism in its own, but human nature will always strive to deviate from the proper course. Free will is by far the deadliest enemy any government or religion has. The ability and right to make the wrong decisions will always assure an eventual collapse in any structured system. It's a continuous cycle of rebirth, restructuring, and rebuilding.

    Having the Jedi and the Galactic Alliance work together is a wonderful idea. But anybody involved in the process must accept, at least on a subconscious level, that they're actions must have the greatest impact on the now, as they're descendents are inevitably going to face the same trials in the near or far-off future.
  24. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    This is sounding a lot like what Kreia was muttering about in KOTOR II.

    Honestly, the ability to use the Force will never die, and sooner or later, someone will discover how to use it for their own ends.

    Pride, Vanity, Greed are the constants in the universe will never disappear, which means, neither would the Sith in principle.
  25. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

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    The difference, though, between some regular shmoe finding out he can can tap into a mystical energy field and a Sith Lord like Palpatine makes all the difference.
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