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Lit Fate of the Jedi issues...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, May 29, 2018.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Well, after a lengthy break, I'm back to finally start reviewing the next series....Fate of the Jedi....God help me from what I've heard from others....but after reading everything else, I just couldn't not read this too....

    Also, MAJOR SPOILERS as I review the series, bc that's the whole point of this to me, to TALK about what I've read...so all will be revealed in time, just maybe let me be the one to do the revealing please?? but all discussions on revealed material is encouraged!!

    This first post is just a few initial free thoughts for the opening chapters.....I'll reserve full judgment and expectantly hope for answers to be presented in the future....

    1) so Jaina and Jag are a total thing now, like TOTAL thing from how it reads...don't remember it being to that degree at the end of Invincible, but hopefully they'll fill in the gaps
    2) so Jaina seems FINE, like totally okay after the ordeal of killing Jacen, hopefully this will be addressed
    3) so Valin Horn has gone crazy? yeah to more tragedy for great characters, also can you say out of nowhere? another thing to be hopefully explained
    4) just saying, I do not remember a younger sister Jedi Horn before this book, hopefully that's my mistake bc the Horns have been a big part of this series for quite a while and I'd hate to just drop in a new character that has been missing from all the previous stories
    5) not really this book's fault but, I read Millenium Falcon before this book, and while I had also already heard about Luke's arrest even before reading that book, that was a pretty big reveal in MF that felt like it ruined what was supposed to be a shocking reveal in this book, pretty uncool of MF to do that
    6) I know that the inclusion of the bounty hunters is supposed to mimic the Empire from the OT, h/e it felt jarring to me since the new GFFA isn't really supposed to be the old Empire aka the outright bad guys, like if bounty hunters of that ilk just tag along with Security on arrests, how's the everyday citizen look at that and go "okay cool"...that'd be a little offputting it seems to me

    anyway, as I said, just some thoughts, I'll try to put off posting a whole lot with immediate issues and try to hold off til I've read enough to get explanations, as some in the past have advised me to do....but feel free to get the convo started, let's have a great time....
     
  2. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Been waiting for you to start reading this series.
     
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  3. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    yea, sorry, work got busy, and I like I said, wanted to read MF before I started this one too, also went ahead and head Honor Among Thieves as well since I knew once I started this one, I'd be busy with it
     
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Nope, God cannot help you -you're on yer own.
    You will be.
     
  5. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

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    Aug 26, 2017
    Totally orthogonal to the story but I was disappointed in the lack of good art for this series.

    I felt like we got some good cover art and supplemental art in earlier books that gave me a good picture of people like Anakin solo, Tekli, caedus, and some of the other NJO including Ganner and Jek. In this besides Vest and Ben sky I don’t feel like we have good visuals of players like the horns and the sith.



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  6. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    as I read about Valin, I'm very interested in something I'm realizing.....

    Valin's actions seem very non-Jedi, and I get it, he's unhinged and thinks others are the enemy, but some of what he says/does just seems so non-Jedi and he def. seems to think he still is a Jedi, this is just what he has to do to escape from the evil-imposters...

    ex. - doesn't care about amputating others simply bc they can get prosthetics, just flat out openly happy to kill, total property destruction w/o care of collateral damage, basically attempts to gruesomely deal with Octa

    I get the feeling he feels this is normal Jedi feelings/behavior and if it is (not counting Luke, Solos, etc), although I don't think it is, no wonder the galaxy is growing leery
     
  7. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    She was a very minor character in the NJO. Basically just a name drop in Jedi scenes.
     
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  8. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I read the part where Daala and Luke meet and she lays out the problem with the Jedi's lack of accountability per say....I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts on this issue (it reminds me of the Sokovia Accords argument in Marvel) (also, I question her true intentions, but my question is on the merits of the issue itself, not Daala being the spokesperson)

    my thoughts (as a Team Iron Man from Marvel), she lays a very interesting case with real evidence....and I do feel for Luke/Jedi bc they do have the Force and can sense "true right", but others can't and are just expected to accept them as the arbiters of that, and that's hard, rules are in place for a reason and supposedly for ALL, that the Jedi don't follow them at times is obviously an issue...

    what's the best answer ? one of the two or does anybody have a good third option?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  9. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    Daala’s a genocidal facist sociopath. She could be giving charity to orphans and you still shouldn’t listen to her.
     
  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jaina being utterly fine after killing Jacen was always shocking and strange to me. Unless she went through the obvious psychological and emotional issues that would cause in the two years between Invincible and Outcast then one doesn't get a very good impression of Jaina as a character. '

    Especially sense she had a bond with him that remained for most of their lives and came back briefly before his death-an emotional, telepathic, empathic and very strong connection.
     
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  11. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    LOTF made it seem like, at least in Betrayal, that Anakin's death still affected the entire Solo family to the point Han and Leia apparently despised Luke for getting their youngest son killed.

    FOTJ just makes it seem like, meh Jacen died, who cares? he was a monster...

    Very poor writing :(
     
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  12. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2010
    I laughed at the meeting between Luke and Daala, when she brings up Kyp (I think thats the scene your talking about)

    All I could think of was, "What were you doing then Daala? Oh that's right, attacking civilians on Mon Cala (Dac) and massacring people on Dantooine"

    She is a war criminal, actively giving the orders to attack non combatants.

    Yes she has good points, but she is the wrong person to make them.


    Fyor Rodan would have worked MUCH better in this seres, especially how they try to make her 'have a point'
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fyor_Rodan
     
  13. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I feel like the quote "abandon all hope, ye who enter here" could describe FotJ pretty accurately (as well as the sequel trilogy, considering the obsession with angst these days, but that's a different topic). Not that the Del Rey EU has ever been a happy place, what with starting with Chewbacca's death, but FotJ is bottom of the barrel (until Crucible anyway). Not even the late, great Allston can salvage much from this mess.

    Don't bother with Valin's POV much, there's not much important stuff there. Actually, there's not much important stuff in 70% of FotJ's page count, but you'll see soon. Valin's sister was mentioned once or twice, but considering how much of a role non-Skywalker Jedi have played, particularly post-TUF, its quite understandable that you forgot she existed. What I hate even worse is that this is possibly Mirax's first action scene in who knows how long, and its, well, let's just say they're really piling on the angst and pain (I think you've covered that part already, but not entirely sure).

    And its times like this why I'm glad they changed the name from New Republic to Galactic Alliance. I can remember the New Republic as the mostly well-meaning but not that great government while the GA is, well, the authors might as well have renamed it Galactic Empire. LotF already had the GA doing lots of awful stuff, and Caedus wasn't even responsible for a lot of those things. Its not like most new GA characters we're introduced to have much redeeming qualities, being more antagonistic than anything else (Niathal, Bwua'tu, etc.).

    Ugh, Daala. Up until later books (and the sequel trilogy) this is my most hated Luke scene, the one where he's discussing things with Daala. Everyone is still glossing over her past history, acting like she's perfectly reasonable and trustworthy (they never treated Borsk this nicely). If it were someone like Fyor Rodan (or Omas) I think Jedi accountability is an important matter that should be discussed and put down in writing for the good of everyone. With her, well, as someone else mentioned, they bring up Kyp's actions from the JAT, but everyone else barely acknowledges everything she was up to during that same trilogy. Its just, ugh, its infuriating that they're still going overboard with the "everybody hates the Jedi" thing, and of all people she gets to talk down to Luke Skywalker (who has won how many galactic wars by now?). Not to mention that Kyp's been "atoning" for his JAT actions ever since, while Daala's been, what, wasting ships fighting the New Republic? Pellaeon was a high-profile ally of the GA for years (and war hero of the Vong War), which is why I could mostly accept him as GA Supreme Commander. Daala as Chief of State is still a, er, well, I'd use ruder words, but its extremely contrived to say the least.

    Its sheer insanity that the Imperial head of state, Jagged Fel, is the friendliest one towards the Jedi, compared to the GA leader (who threatens to extradite Kyp to the Imperials). Well, they installed him, but still. If people ever complain about Jedi meddling, well, they let Daala be GA leader, so if that's not holding back, I don't know what is.

    As for Jedi accountability, well, I wish the Jedi could work with the government more often, but that requires that the novels actually develop the government. We saw several Senate factions during the NJO, and while Borsk wasn't a great person, he was never evil. Now, its basically Daala and endless amounts of random GA mooks. I don't think the prequel era model was quite that bad. The Republic was reasonably stable for centuries, partially thanks to Jedi assistance, until a very powerful and smart Sith Lord brought things crashing down, but its hard to take suggestions seriously coming from Daala. And honestly, that requires someone with integrity who is outside the Jedi sphere of influence, like a nice Senator or two, but well, that would lessen the angst so can't have that.

    There were attempts at closer cooperation, such as the High Council during the NJO, but you saw how long that lasted (and how much good it did). What's even sadder is that compared to the isolated, cloistered stagnating prequel era Jedi, Luke's NJO should have plenty of connections. Luke is legendary for his actions during the Rebellion, several other senior Jedi are also military veterans (Corran, Kyle, Farlander, Cighal was a New Republic ambassador originally, from a trilogy that had this annoying redhead Imperial, hm, whatever happened to that villain :p ), Leia is a former Chief of State (but we saw how little her influence mattered during the NJO), etc. A lot of characters from earlier generations have retired or died off by now, but the Jedi really shouldn't be so isolated.

    Not sure how far you've gotten, but blaming Caedus on Luke is insulting. Luke advised against most of what Omas and Caedus did during the Corellian Insurrection (after that initial kidnapping attempt anyway), and now he's getting the blame? While someone like Niathal just sneaked away or something? If there were more checks against the GA acting like the Empire, well, then I'd like more GA-Jedi cooperation, but so far most of what we've seen from the GA has not been encouraging, so I can't really agree to putting the Jedi until GA control. There are possible compromises of course, but its still ludicrous seeing Luke negotiating with Chief of State Daala.

    Sorry to go on at such length, just replying to multiple posts in this thread. Normally I don't mope over this series much, but I still remember much of it, especially because the sequels seem to be taking cues from LotF and FotJ. Well, not so much cues as more like all three (LotF, FotJ, TFA-TLJ) come off as badly written fanfiction, which is why I can see so many similarities between them. Brace yourself, its only going to get worse from here with no improvements.

    By the way, by the time you reach book three or four of FotJ, I suggest you go read John Jackson Miller's tie-in books to this series, they are way better than this garbage. They're not necessary to FotJ's plot (what little there), but its nice to be reminded of what good Star Wars writing looks like.
     
  14. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    Up in the politician’s heaven, Borsk is very angry. After decades of being demonized, Fotj and Lotf prove that every suspicion he had about the New Republic, Imperial Remnant, and New Jedi Order were completely right.
     
  15. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    hey as I said, I know Daala is horrible and the wrong person to be providing this argument, no question there and it's asinine that the GFFA elected her COS, as said, basically Empire 2.0 which is sad and stupid and makes little sense except that everybody went stupid

    my question was about the argument itself that the Jedi don't obey the govt. laws and lack accountability, as someone pointed out, Fyor Rodan (sp. sorry) had this issue back in NJO in Destiny's Way I think, and he would make a better spokesperson

    You mean how she doesn't handle the situation with Valin except to freak out like a little girl? When Mirax Horn is actually a bada**, yes disappointing
    Agreed
    Noted point on the double standard of Daala's/Kyp's past, but on the issue itself, it's a pretty big thing. Corran had a problem with it at the time. I have always had a huge problem with it. I can definitely see why the galaxy would have a HUGE problem with it. I mean, Kyp did blow up a whole planet, and Luke told everybody, nah it's cool, he's sorry. It's nice Kyp has been "atoning" since (although some of his actions in NJO are borderline), but that's not really the point is it? People are punished for crimes typically, and Kyp never was.
    Very good explanation on why there are issues in the bigger sense b/t the Jedi and the govt. I tend to agree with you there, and that will always be a major problem. I do agree it sucks that most of this is simply bc of angst driven writing. I also agree that the Jedi shouldn't be isolated. However, on the small scale, shouldn't the Jedi obey the laws in ways they are not currently (walking away from investigations, being executioners, etc)
    Actually, I think Luke is to blame to some degree. He definitely didn't recognize Jacen's fall. He definitely didn't try to tell others about Jacen's fall (even if they wouldn't have listened) once he did recognize it. He definitely sent Jaina (Jacen's own sister) to kill him instead of manning up and doing it himself as the Grand Master. That's not to say others weren't at fault too like you mentioned, but Luke has blame also.
    Agreed here on the macro level. The GA shouldn't just be the Jedi's leadership. However, once again, the Jedi should still be subject to the GA's laws. It's like any organization in USA.
     
  16. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    The Jedi want all the benifits of complete GA support with none of the oversight that would logically come with full GA support. Dalaa isnt the right person to bring up the contradiction there on account of she's a nut, but I can't feel too bad considering a Jedi backed cabal was the group that decided installing her as unelected CoS was somehow a good idea.

    As for the pubic sentiment turning against the Jedi. I can completely buy it. At this point in the pubic eye they are basically an above the law vigilante group that can break in anywhere with no warrant, kill with no trail. Then when one of thier members goes over the line they get to play the " oh he fell to the dark side/ went temporarily insane but he's better now" card and get them off scott free. What's worse is that any attempts to reign the organization in, invariably lead to Jedi led regime change.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I mean.

    The Jedi abandon the GA at Kuat. Kashyyyk is ravaged. Commenor is devastated.

    The Jedi blow up Centerpoint. Fondor and Roche are battered.

    The Jedi attempt to assassinate Caedus. Mandalore is attacked and the Empire bloodied.

    It’s all the fault of the Jedi.

    Daala is the perfect one to name as CoS in the circumstances. She’s not GA, not Confederate, anti-Jedi, and not a current Imperial. She’s isolated, with no powerbase.

    Blame Cal for what happened? The Jedi helped him into power. Hate Caedus? He was a Jedi. And so forth.

    The idea that militancy would have ended the Vong War earlier is prevalent. The Empire looks better than the New Republic. Centralisation was still popular; Coruscant was relatively unharmed by Caedus, so it’s still open to a more militant way of doing things. Daala replaces Caedus and the GAS replaces the GAG. It’s a continuation of the same government, really.


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  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Regarding Luke and Caedus-Luke did say something about the whole taint over killing Lumiya and the risk of falling into darkness himself.

    Which is an interesting discussion in itself but a more cynical person IU would say this was Luke wanting to avoid the actual consequences of confronting Jacen and just sending his sister to do the dirty work for him. Which leads me to ask the question what was Luke's plan in the event of Jaina's death or capture at caedus' hands?

    Regarding Daala her argument is that Luke had a duty not just to the Jedi to ensure they didn't fall and start wars and cause chaos but the Galaxy. Luke failed to prevent Caedus and the SCGW. Therefore he was derelict in his duty.

    This to me seems like a fairly reasonable argument on its own merits.
     
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  19. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Rodan was an idiot in war-time, but in a more peaceful era he'd make more sense.
     
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  20. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Yeah, I know that was Luke's claim, but 2 issues I have with it....
    1) I believe Luke Skywalker was strong enough to NOT have that problem, it was bad writing to give him that "excuse"....
    2) Sending Jacen's twin sister is still NOT the way to go...send some other Master or a group of Masters or go yourself anyway bc better to damn yourself than your niece....

    but I do agree with what you say on Daala's argument
     
  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    But he was a Confederate and during his term had Commenor attack Coruscant with bioweapons.

    Also, to add to my comments - the galaxy has been told to forgive the Yuuzhan Vong, and to accept Imperials since the Bastion Accords.

    How is that worse than accepting Daala?


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  22. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    I maintain that LotF and Fate would have made much more sense with Nas Choka’s YV remnant being a player. The Vong being an active part of the war against the confederation - StealthXs flying alongside Coralskippers - would have been fascinating.
     
  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Fecking hell Sinny, you post that sentence and it's abundantly clear why I bailed at Betrayal!
     
  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I bailed at never!

    Neverrrrrrrr.

    I understand why the galaxy went Centrist and right wing and Imperial. That’s all.

    I don’t approve, but I can’t argue with it when invaders from another galaxy consumed half the galaxy in two years and then tortured the hell out of it, making the other half live in fear of their fate, that civilisation was about to end and they may as well just give up. X-wing: Mercy Kill made it abundantly clear that the bog standard people of the galaxy lived in complete terror; Betrayal introduced an agent that wanted to shoot Wedge if given the chance because every one he knew died in the Vong War because the Empire fell.

    That abject fear.

    It makes people give up rights, freedoms and sanity. They did it during the Clone Wars and they did it again after the Yuuzhan Vong War.

    It’s happened enough times on Earth alone.

    FotJ spoilers hidden for Sam.

    By the time Daala goes off her rocks the Galactic Alliance finally learns the lesson after Cal, Niathal, Caedus and Daala showing in four years how badly these powers in a single set of hands goes, but then politics become moot when the Celestial Goddess of Chaos and Old One Locust with the Lady Heart emerged from her hundred millennia old prison and enacted the ruddy Apocalypse with the aid of eight thousand Sith on Coruscant.

    How does this not sound cool to anyone!!!

    But seriously Sam; read Lost Tribe of the Sith too.


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  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    [​IMG]
     
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