Saga Favorite space battle?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

?

Best space battle in the saga?

Battle of Yavin (A New Hope) 26 vote(s) 23.4%
Hoth Asteroid Field Chase (The Empire Strikes Back) 7 vote(s) 6.3%
Battle Of Endor (Return Of The Jedi) 54 vote(s) 48.6%
Battle Of Naboo (The Phantom Menace) 2 vote(s) 1.8%
Battle Over Coruscant (Revenge Of The Sith) 44 vote(s) 39.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Maybe the CIS doesn't seem to be moving to you because they are blocked by the Republic. The CIS can't move very fast since they have to fight their way through the Republic fleet which would slow anyome's pace, while keeping in formation around their flagship which seems to be a sphere to protect it. If they ram their ships, then they will be knocked out and can't defend the flagship, not the best plan. We can also ask why the Rebels didn't bomb or ram the second Death Star by that same logic. While the Republic ships have to fight through this school of CIS ships to reach the flagship at the core. We clearly see a line of Republic ships slowly piercing their way through the CIS fleet, the setup of this battle is going to lead to ships becoming intermingled as a outside group has to fight their through another group to it's core. We also see as Anakin and Obi-Wan fly though the battle torwards the CIS flagship, we see less and less Republic ships and more and more CIS ships. By the time they reach the flagship, there are no republic ships to be seen in the background. This shows that the Republic, other than the two Jedi, haven't breached though the CIS fleet yet. Both sides seem to be blasting each other to reach their goals, the battle is pretty much two blockades trying to force their way through each other. I think the Republic ship that broke though into the core was only trying to disable the CIS flagship, but we see a scene where the clones hit one of the Invisible Hand's gun magazines which blows up and sent the ship crashing. Until that scene it looked like the Invisible Hand was beating the Republic ship. They showed the CIS was using Shells instead of lasers for a reason.

    While I agree with you that the Rebuplic would need to form a sphere to block the CIS fleet from escaping. The same is true of the Battle of Endor, since the Imperial fleet should have formed a sphere around the Rebel fleet and their second Death Star (so it can blast the Rebels), but we clearly see this doesn't happen. Also why send your fighters to be intermingled with the large emeny ships you plan to blow up with a Death Star so they get blown up too? Seems pretty wasteful and foolish. All the battles can be nit picked to death if we want to.
  2. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I forgot to add the the Imperial and Rebel fleets are also just mixed together, just blasting each at close range during the battle of Endor. At the beginning of ANH we are not shown how long or how far the Star Destroyer was chasing the Rebel ship for, we need to try to avoid double standards.
  3. QsAssistant Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 2
    My favorite is the Battle of Yavin. It was the battle that put faith in the Rebellion and that they could win the war. It also had that victory for Luke, a farm boy on a do nothing planet that becomes 'a new hope' for everyone. The best movie with the best space battle!

    1) Battle of Yavin
    2) Battle of Endor
    3) Battle Over Coruscant
    4) Hoth Asteroid Field Chase
    5) AOTC Asteroid Field Chase (added this one)
    6) Battle of Naboo
  4. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    I always thought that it looked like the BIG ships in ROTS weren't moving much because of the scale of the battle. Then they had smaller ships zipping around them so they're going to look static compared to them. So in effect THEY were the reference points to determine how fast the fighters were flying about dogfighting. I'm sure they were moving as much and as fast as they could when in close quarters with other gigantic ships!
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  5. Grievousdude Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 3
    Battle Over Coruscant. Not only my favourite space battle in the saga but also one of my favourite scenes in the saga.
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  6. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Battle of Endor for me. It was the 'everything's on the line' feel of it. Like Yavin offcourse but it was more epic in scale. Plus all the Rebel/ Empire ships looked so much cooler.
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  7. Minez01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    star 1
    I voted for the Endor battle, I love every part of that whole thing.

    In terms of the other battles, I didn't enjoy the battle in ROTS for some reason, just couldn't get into it. I like Yavin, but the whole thing was a bit too static for me, I prefer the ROTS/ROTJ style where there are capital ships around in the mix with the smaller fighters buzzing around them. I also really enjoyed the short engagement between Obi Wan and Jango in the asteroid field in AOTC, which I thought was very atmospheric, and a better overall battle than the Falcon battle in ESB.
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  8. Wookiee_Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2007
    star 1
    The first time I watched a Star Wars film as a kid, the original ANH on VHS, I immediately rewound the tape after it finished and rewatched the Battle of Yavin. It has a lot of sentimental value to me, but I think it is also just brilliant. The effects are great and they look far better than any modern CGI fest IMO, the music is spot on, there are some really memorable scenes, the pacing and editing is just brilliant with the cutting back and forth from the Yavin base with the garbled pilot comms coming in, it just rocks.

    Coruscant for me just has no emotion whatsoever. Tons of flashy and impressive visuals, but it's kind of like a really long instrumental break in a prog metal song with endless shred duels.
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  9. DarthLazious28273 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2013
    The Battle of Yavin in ANH has a special place in my heart as well as The space battle in ROTJ.
  10. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    Battle of Yavin. Real tight editing. Lucas - and his missus - really knew how to edit, back in the day.

    There's great rhythm to it. Tells a load of little individual stories, sets everything up, builds to an unbelievable crescendo, then - when you've completely forgotten about him - Han rocks up.

    Easily the best space battle in cinema history.
  11. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Battle of Yavin also. It is more integral to the story and flow of the film than other battles. The dogfights are more real than in any other ep, and you really get a sense of what is at stake. ROTJ's battle for example, is not as important as Luke's confrontation with Vader and the Emperor aboard the deathstar 2. The ROTJ space scenes still rock though. Besides those two, I really like the Millenium Falcon being chased through the asteroid field by Ties. The music and just plain fun of it makes it one of my fave scenes of the entire saga.
  12. Jedi General Gelderd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2004
    star 5
    My vote goes for the Battle Of Coruscant in 'Revenge Of The Sith'.

    I think it's due to being thrown into it moments after the opening crawl, and everything about it is so big in scale, it's a truly epic battle! It's a magnificent culmination of the Clone Wars, and everyone involved really makes it a big team effort, you can tell these guys have been through hardship together and are uniting once more to really fight to save their Chancellor and repel the Seperatists.

    It's grand, it's busy, it's noisy and exciting and all the attention to detail is perfect. Plus I love the sound effects of the fighters, the ships, the lasers and explosions. Sheer brilliance for a true space battle which I hope to see again in Episode VII.

    This is followed by the Battle Of Endor in 'Return Of The Jedi' - the sense of comaradre is felt more here than anyother battle, and the fact it's everyone against the Empire pretty much, the big climax to the saga so far is great. Full of tension, excitement and brilliant wit and dialogue between everyone.
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  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Sorry that I've neglected to answer in this thread.

    In RotJ the rebels close to point blank range because that will prevent the DS from blasting their ships.
    It was recognized that this was a suicidal tactic but as Lando said "We will last longer than against that DS.."
    The admiral wanted to sound a retreat but Lando argued that if they run away, they will never have another chance to destroy the DS. But against the DS they have no defence so the only option was to move in with the ISD.
    That tactic was risky, and the characters acknowledged this but their tactics is explained and makes sense.

    What does ANH have to do with this? The ISD was chasing the Blockade runner, how long is not said but how is that relevant? Leia said, in her message to Obi-Wan, that she was going to Tatooine to pick him up and take him to Alderaan.
    So it is possible that the ISD intercepted the blockade runner just as they arrived over Tatooine.

    Comments to the older post, why didn't the rebels ram the DS? Well the DS is quite a bit larger than capital ship so ramming it will do some damage but won't destroy it by a long shot. The SSD crash into the DS and that doesn't destroy the DS. Simply blasting it will also do damage but nowhere near enough to destroy it.
    Remember, the DS is the size of a moon so blowing it to bits is not easy.

    Why send TIE's when the DS will fire? To destroy the rebel fighters and loosing a few TIE's isn't very serious.
    Also, Palpatine had a plan to break Luke, first by revealing that he knew about the attack and that the rebel force on Endor are walking into a trap, then by having the TIEs attacking the rebel fleet and finally an even bigger shock, the DS is operational. A carefully executed plan to break Luke down bit by bit and get him angrier and angrier.

    The CIS have a very valuable hostage onboard, escaping with him is their no 1 priority. So sacrificing a few ships in order for Grievs ship to escape is very worthwhile. The opening crawl says that the CIS ships are trying to leave but we don't see them leaving and we are never told what stopped them from leaving nor what the CIS did in order to break through. Even after a very long battle, Griev ship is still right over Coruscant, didn't they get further than that?
    ANH shows two ISDs moving in relation to a planet and those two ISD could keep up and even gain on the MF.
    If the CIS has a defensive sphere around Grievs ship then that sphere would try and move AWAY from Coruscant.
    But as I said, at the end, Grievs ship has apparently not moved at all.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  14. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    I think the Battle of Coruscant is the most visually interesting, but the battle of Endor has a special quality that none of the others have. It has a narrative structure with multiple plot twists. 1st, the rebels think they're making a sneak attack. Then they show up and because of Lando's quick thinking they don't fly straight into the energy barrier. That makes them realize "It's a trap!" They think about retreating, but they have faith that Han will knock out the shield generator. Then another surprise: the Death Star is operational! So they improvise and start trying to take out Star Destroyers. Then the Shield Generator is knocked out (also in a surpising way). So, they can finally take on the Death Star itself, but even making it into the core of the Death Star is a harrowing mission.

    Yavin does have one twist. Han shows up. But mostly it's pretty simple. Avoid getting shot, fly to the exhaust port, and try to drop torpedoes in it.

    None of the other battles are as complicated narratively as the ROTJ battle. Coruscant and the asteroid field chase merely have obstacles before they achieve their goal. Han does come up with some pretty clever ideas, though.

    TPM's battle seems the most simplistic of all. No twists, no obstacles at all besides the simple don't get shot down.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 17, 2013
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  15. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    TPM's final battle isn't quite that simple, the Gungans were a diversion for the bulk of the droid army at Threed, tricking the TF so the Naboo could sneak in to free their pilots and capture Nute. Maul shows up and kills Qui-Gon, the TF captures Padme, but thinks she is the decoy which ends up allowing the Naboo to capture Nute. Lastly the whole battle between both sides is really a trick, they are both being played by the head bad guy and are only helping him reach his goal. At the end when they celebrate their false victory, the only one that really won is the bad guy (Palps), and the good guys don't even know it. This makes TPM's ending pretty dark, the heros are already losing, but are tricked to believe they have won.
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  16. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Yeah, I totally agree with you. I was just speaking of the space battle part of the TPM. The whole battle of the TPM, land and space together, especially when you include Palpatine's machinations behind the scenes, is very complicated.
  17. Darth_Hydra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    Battle of Endor for me. I love everything about it except that the Emperor let the Death Star II be so incomplete that you could fly a ship into the middle of it. That always seemed really stupid IMO, shield generator or not.
  18. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Yes it made some sense, just like how the Republic ships and CIS ships were in close range since they were two blockades trying to pass though each other, this also makes sense, yet you choose to ignore it. You can accept it or don't accept it, but please just stop ignoring it.


    You were complaining about ROTS not expressing the amount of time that passed in the opening battle, and I was pointing out ANH also makes this same "mistake" you complain about. I like your explanation about the chase, but it is still yours and not the film's, the film never explains. So this is still a problem with that scene since we are not told such details by the film, however such details are not that important to the story anyway.


    Still could have bombed or rammed the superlaser to disable it. The SSD appeared to crash into a completed area of the Death Star that was more able to withstand such a impact. However there were still large uncompleted areas that would have been much weaker and have more exposed vital areas not able to withstand such impacts. Rebels ships bombing or ramming such areas would cause alot more damage.

    BTW, off topic but I always thought the SSD crash scene was poorly done and wish GL would have redone it in CGI to improve it, just my two cents.



    The Empire could have sent the TIEs in after the Rebel captial ships were destoryed to mop up any remaining Rebel fighters. It is like sending your troops into a city that you are going to nuke anyway. It is foolish and wasteful, very bad tactics. I could see TIEs swamming around the Star Destoryers to protect them, but not sending them into the heart of the Rebel fleet to get caught in friendly fire is just plain stupid. I don't see what the Rebel forces walking into a trap on Endor or Luke has to do with the TIEs being needlessly being blown up by Death Star friendly fire. Seeing his friends being blown up is enough to get Luke angry, no need to needlessly throw away your own men like that. Luke would just laugh at that and call Palps a dumba$$.


    We see the Republic are ripping the CIS ships to shreads, which means the CIS ships are weaker but rely on greater numbers since we see the CIS fleet outnumbers the Republic's. However since we se a Republic SD can easily shoot a single CIS ship apart, they may not be able to ram a SD without being destoryed first or be able to cause that much damage. But if several CIS ships gang up on a SD in a fire fight, then the tables are more even. Why do you have to be told? It is clearly shown that the Republic fleet is blocking the CIS' escape. Just like the Imps block the Rebel's escape in ROTJ, in both cases the SDs should have formed a sphere but didn't in both cases, but we can still see that the SDs in both battles are blocking the escape route. However in ROTS the two sides have formed into blockades that are trying to pass though each other, how many times must I repeat this. I don't know about you, but the CIS ships seem to be moving to me, it is slow going for the capital ships being in blockades passing fighting though each other, but not for the fighters that are zipping around. Just like with the chase at the start of ANH, the films doesn't state how long Palps has been captured, how long the battle was going on, or how long or far the Rebels were chased, because these aspects are not important to the story. ANH never explains why the SD didn't caught up with the Rebel ship until near Tatootaine, why not in deep space or the edge of the system? Why no one complains about that? Because it is ok for the OT to make mistakes but not the PT?
  19. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    I have always thought the same thing. Even when I was a kid I thought the SSD crash scene looked fake. I always wished the GL would have changed that. I also wished that GL changed the computer displays on the X-wings and TIE Fighters. The displays look like something out of an 80's video game.
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    The reason is that the CIS ships don't seem to make any effort to leave.
    Even after the whole battle, Griev ship is still right over Coruscant, it apparently hasn't moved at all.
    From what I saw, the rep ships are fighting the seps ships, neither side seem to move a great deal.
    Obi-Wan and Anakin fly through the main battle and reach Grievs ship.

    I could not see much in the way of formations or overall tactic or strategy. If the seps ships were attempting to leave I didn't see any evidence of that. No one mentioned that there was anything blocking their way or what they were going to to do about it. Apart from Anakin and Obi-Wan going to rescue Palpatine, I didn't get much sense of what the rep tactic was either, except shooting at the enemy. They even shoot at Griev ship, which is a bit odd considering this could very well have killed Palpatine, whom they were trying to rescue.

    In ANH passage of time isn't important but in RotS it is. As soon as the seps had Palpatine, they should have moved away and used all their might to accomplish this. So if a long time had passed between Palpatine being taken and their ships still being over Coruscant, it creates a problem.
    Also, from the dialogue, it seems that Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't on Coruscant when Palpatine was taken, so they had to have been recalled. Again indicating a longer passage of time.

    The plan the rebels had was to fly their fighters into the superstructure and blow the main reactor and as soon as they are able to carry out this plan, this is exactly what they do. The original plan had the cruisers to form a perimeter around the DS. Why bother shooting at the DS or ramming it when it isn't needed? The fighters are all that was needed according to the rebel strategy. Further, shooting at the DS while their fighters are there could kill their own fighters, something you complain that the empire is doing. Ramming will cost you ships and lives and again why bother when your plan is working? Before the shield went down, the rebel ships could not do anything about the DS. Once it was down, the fighters launced their attack but the cruisers still had their hands full with the ISDs.
    They were still a danger so better to deal with them and let the fighters to their job.


    The empire hasn't been shown to care a great deal about their footsoldiers, Vader ordered TIEs and ISDs into the asteriod belt in ESB despite Pietts objections and he kept them there despite heavy damage.
    Also there didn't seem to be much debris or other ships getting damaged when the DS started blasting rebel capital ships. We see one big rebel ship get blown up but the other ships around it don't seem affected.
    Also having the TIES flying in among the rebel ships keeps them busy and distracted while the ISDs get in position.

    Where did you see this? I could never get any sense of how many ships the seps or the rep have?
    The seps eventually loose but if that was due to numbers, worse ships of bad strategy I have no idea.

    Again how did you come up with this? We see seps ships get blown up yes but how do you know that those ships hadn't sustained lots of damage before?
    Also the seps ships are of around the size of the rep ships, so them ramming the rep ships will damage or destroy them.

    No it isn't shown nor is it said. In RotJ at least they say what the ISDs are there to do even though they could not do that from the position they were in. But RotS just have lots of ships fighting each other.

    No they didn't seem to move to me, Griev ship is right over the planet the whole time.
    Noone onboard is ever talking about trying to move away or about forces blocking their escape.
    They just seem to be sitting there.
    And it didn't get any sense of two fleets trying to move through each other because I never saw two fleets. I saw lots of ships from both sides randomly spread out in all directions.

    In RotJ we saw the rebel fleet and imperial fleet when the battle started, then the rebel fleet engaged the imperial fleet at close range in order to prevent the DS from blasting them.
    We saw ships destroyed but there was an sense of the overall battle, what each side was trying to do. I never got any such sense with the RotS battle, it was simply a lot of ships blasting each other.
    If there had been some dialogue about what the seps ships were trying to do and what the rep ships was doing to counter them then the battle would have been better to me.

    But to me it is, if the battle has been going on a long time then them still being over Coruscant makes no sense. The second Palpatine was onboard, Griev ship should have left and done all it could to escape. But given that Obi-Wan and Anakin were not there when Palpatine was taken it implies that some time has passed and that creates a problem. The total lack of movement during the battle compounds this problem.

    Because there is nothing to complain about? As I said, the passage of time isn't very important in ANH. But given the obvious disparity in fire power, I doubt the Blockade Runner had been fighting the ISD for very long. Also, it seems that as soon a ship enters hyperspace, other ships can't follow it
    So this battle can't have been going on in hyperspace or before the Blockade Runner came to Tatooine. We also know that Leia were planning to go to Tatooine to pick Obi-Wan up.
    We also know that Vader traced the signals the rebel spies sent to Leias ship.
    We are also told that no transmissions were made from Leias ship before or during the battle.
    In all, it gives a pretty clear picture that not a long time has passed.

    In closing, as I said before, I rate the RotS battle below E´ndor and Yavin because it lacks build up, and also because I could not get much sense of any overall strategy or tactics from either side in the battle. It was simply a lot of fighting and that is not enough to make an onscreen battle great to me.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  21. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1




    We see the CIS fleet has formed into a sphere to protect the flagships, and the Republic fleet formed a ring to stop them from escaping, and a string of SDs fighting their way though the CIS sphere. You can deny it all you want, but it doesn't mean we don't see it in the film, which it is clearly presented. The CIS is seen blasting their way though the Republic fleet, seems like quite a bit of effort to me.

    How do you know it hasn't moved? During the film we see it move quite a bit despite being trapped by the Republic fleet.

    Again, two blockade trying to blast their way through each other, pretty slow going. The ships in ROTJ didn't seem to move that much either.

    Yes that is what they do, besides flying right by a line of SDs blasting their way though the CIS fleet to reach the flagship.



    So I guess seeing the CIS ships, trying to blast an escape route though the Republic blockade that is surrounding them is not an attempt to leave then? Why do you have to be told when it is shown? Kind of redundant isn't it? Again we see a line of SDs spearheading their way into the heart of the CIS fleet to reach the flagship. We see Obi-Wan and Anakin fly right past them. We are clearly show the Republic fleet has surrounded the CIS fleet, and a group of SDs are blasting their way though, what is hard to understand? They were shooting at the flagship to disable it, you know, to keep it from escaping. However we see the clones get a luckly hit and explode one of the flagship's shell magazines, sending it clashing. We are shown the CIS uses shells instead of turbolasers for a reason.







    May not be important to you, but it is to other people. It may have taken time to capture Palps, bring him to their flagship, and their escape may have been delayed by Republic forces until Anakin's and Obi-Wan's forces showed up. Yes they were recalled from the Outer Rim, however none of the films explains how long space tavel takes. Also the Republic could have spotted the CIS fleet near coruscant and recalled their outlying forces. It is also never explained why the Imp SD didn't overtake the Rebel ship until they were in escape pod range of Tatooine, not knowing the passage of time does create a problem. You choose to play double standards and just ignore this problem because it's the OT.









    Except their strategy was based on the Death Star not operating. While the fighters slowly make their way though the Death Star, it can still attack the Rebel fleet or blow up Endor. So instead of the Rebel ships just sitting there and hoping not to get blown up, maybe they should try to knock out the superlaser so no more of their ships or Endor gets blown up. There is a deleted scene where Palps gives orders for Endor to be blown up if the shields go down.









    We are shown a Republic SD blows a CIS Frigate in half with only a few shots. We are shown the CIS ships out number the Republic ships, it is clearly seen in the battle. But we also see mostly CIS frigates and destroyers being shot apart by SDs, we do not see many SDs going down, TF battleships seem to be doing okay but there are not that many of them seen in the battle. CIS crusiers, seem to be equal to Republic SDs since the flagship was winning the fight, until one of it's ammo magazines was hit.






    The frigates are smaller, more skeletal, have less mass than SDs. Republic SDs are more heavily built and have more mass. CIS destoryers are longer, but thiner, more skeletal, and seem to have less mass. Only the CIS crusiers like the flagship are equal to a SD in size and mass. Since we see a SD can blow apart a CIS frigate or destroyer with just a few shots, it seems like a CIS ship would have a hard time ramming a SD before being blown apart by it first. Instead we see groups of CIS ships ganging up on individual SDs.




    Yes it is clearly shown that the CIS fleet has formed a sphere, while the Republic fleet has formed a ring to block them, and a line of SDs are blasting their way though. I really don't know how you have missed it? When was the last time you even watched the film?



    [IMG]

    In this screencap, we can clearly see the CIS ships are in formation around their flagship, while two Sds are spearheading their way through. All the Republic ships are pointed right at the CIS flagship, how can you miss that?

    The rest is you just repeating the same points I already defeated before.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Apr 23, 2013
  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    I don't see a sphere of seps ships nor do I see a ring of SD around it. I saw griev ship and there were some other seps ships close to it. Then I saw some SD in the distance. While flying towards Griev ships I saw a total mix of sep ships and rep ships. No formations that I could see, just a random collection of ships.

    Because when Anakin and Obi-Wan approach it, it is right over Coruscant and later, when the ship is damaged, it is STILL right over Coruscant. In other words, it hasn't moved. How many ways do you want me to say this.

    We see the rebel/imp ships before they engage each other and they were quite a ways from each other. But the rebel captial ships got close to the ISD while the DS only had time to fire one more shot. We also saw them move when they were taking evasive action in order to avoid the shield.

    And again I didn't see two blockades, I saw loads of ships randomly distributed and shooting at each other. Had the film shown one distant shot that displayed the seps fleet and the rep fleet moving towards it then fine. Or even just a line or two of dialogue, that would have been enough.

    No because I only saw sep ships shooting at rep ships but no attempt to move, no strategy and no spoken commands either. We cut to gen Griev a couple of times and then it would have been a good time to have him say commands of the like "Concentrate forward firepower, we have to break through." This would take ten seconds and would have been enough. If Griev had displayed any actual strategy or tactical thinking in the battle then that would have given the character more depth and made him more usefull instead of the waste I found him to be.
    Because it isn't shown and then being told would serve.

    Again I didn't see the heart of the seps fleet because I never got an overview of how the fleets were deployed.
    It was simply a whole bunch of ships thrown together. Yes we see Griev ship and see a few other sep ships around it. But we also see other sep ships in various directions and rep ships in various directions.
    No we don't see that rep fleet has surrounded the sep fleet not are we told this. We see sep ships and rep ships arragned randomly in various directions. Some sep ships are close together and there are rep ships all over the place.
    Why are the CIS using shells? What is the reason? Why shells are used are never explained. Are they less or more damaging damaging than turbo lasers? If so where is that established? If the rep were looking to disable Griev ship then Ion cannons would have been a better choice as they disable ships without blowing them up, as seen in ESB.
    Also if they were shooting to disable Griev ship then they should have limited their fire to the engines. Instead they were shooting all over the place. Which could easily have killed Palpatine and this would not be good.

    Um, I have been arguing that passage ot time is important in RotS.
    Also I did say that as soon as Palpatine was onboard, they should have left.
    So move away from the planet but from what the film show us, Griev ship seems content with just sitting there.

    It is not just travel time, it is gathering up your forces and so on. Moving with an army is often slower than moving on your own. Even so, a passage of time of 5-6 hours would not be long for them to get recalled but it would have been a very long time for Griev just to sit there and not move.
    Also getting Palpatine was called a stunning move so the rep seemed to have been taken by suprise.
    Another problem with a long passasge of time is, why haven't any Jedi from Coruscant tried to save Palpatine?
    In ANH the ISD take out the blockade runner very quickly so no exact time is given but it seems to have been over quickly. The other info we have also suggest a quick fight so the fight was quick, what of it?
    If it was quick there is no problem. Nothing really suggests a longer fight so why would you assume that the blockade runner have been fighting the ISD for days on end?
    You seem unable to defend the PT without having to bring the OT into this.
    The seps have an urgent imperative to leave in RotS so them being in the same place over several hours gives rise to a problem.

    The ANH fight seemed to have been quick and if it was then that makes sense. Leia didn't have time to send the data anywhere else, the ISD was close enough the whole time to monitor signals or maybe even jam them. The Blockade runner is outclassed and outgunned, it could not have held off an ISD for very long and from what we see, it didn't. So in ANH there is no problem so why are you trying to create one?


    The DS can't shoot at their ships while they are mixed with the ISDs. However if they break away from the ISDs they are open for attack. And not just from the DS but also from the ISDs.
    Also, slowly? It didn't take long for Lando to fly into the DS, get to the reactor, blow it and get out. What five-ten minutes.
    Also if Endor gets blown up, what of it, the rebels loose what, 20-30 people at most. So crashing a ship with hundreds of people seems wastefull.
    And the DS trying to blow up Endor isn't in the film in any event so not relevant.
    And the rebels could just as easily figure that the imperials would try to run when the shield was down as the DS was now open for attack. So the gunner crew could simply have left. And perhaps they did because we never saw the DS fire another shot after the second rebel ship got blown.

    And the evidence that this CIS ship was totaly undamaged before it got hit is?
    Since we never the ENTIRE sep fleet or the ENTIRE rep fleet we have no idea what their total numbers are. Nor are any numbers ever spoken of. In RotJ we clearly see the rebel fleet and the imperial fleet and we can get an idea about numbers. The RotS fight is more chaotic and it is impossible to get a sense of total numbers.

    Then simply go faster, the faster you go the more kinetic energy you have. If the CIS has a third of the weight of an SD but is moving twice as fast, it will have more kinetic energy. Another simple tactic is to load fighters with massive explosives and use them for ramming. A tactic simple enough that even the old Battlestar Galatica series used it.

    Just now and I don't see a sphere, I saw some seps ships close to griev ship yes, but not a spere of them. The field of vision was far too limited for that. There are some rep ships pointed at Griev ship but also many other pointed in other directions.


    There are also a lot of rep ships pointed away from Griev ship, did you miss that?


    [/QUOTE]

    No you havent, my main point is that Griev ship hasn't moved from the first time we see it to just before it crashes. It is still right over the planet. We don't see anything that prevents it from leaving, we are never told about anything that prevents it from leaving and at no point are Griev giving any orders about trying to leave. The only order about direction he gave was to keep the ship in orbit. And as long as they are in orbit they can't be trying to leave can they?
    Conclusion, the ship just sat there.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
    Yunners likes this.
  23. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Also I wanted to add a couple of more things to my response that I missed.

    The CIS ships are still crewed with organic officers, and yet you seem to have no problem that they kamikaze themselves into Republic warships, yet you have a problem with the Rebels doing the same thing to the Empire? Why? Are alien lives not as importent as humans?

    Once the Rebel fleet engages the Imp fleet at close range in a desprate move to buy time, they really don't dispaly any tactics in that fight. With ROTS, the smaller and weaker CIS ships group up and gang up on individual SDs to even the fight. The Rebels don't seem to even do that, the smaller weaker Rebel ships just engage the larger and more powerful Imp SDs mano a mano, not very good tactics and sure way to have your fleet blown away. After awhile a few Rebel ships seem to gang up on the Super SD, but we are only told this, not shown, and the Super SD is still taken out though only a freak accident. Plus it is really stupid a ship that large didn't have a backup bridge.

    People complain about Anakin throwing fits, but Vader's fits in the OT are worse since they resulted in 1000s of his own men being killed. Anyone else would have been executed for displaying such poor leadership.
  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1) I suggested ramming as a viable tactic, I wasn't trying to evaluate it's moral implications. If the seps are trying to leave, which makes sense given that they have a valuable hostage. If their escape are blocked by rep ships and they are unable to simply shoot their way through. If they are are being decimated by the rep ships and staying would mean all their ships will be destroyed. THEN ramming is a viable alternative. They will loose ships yes but if they are loosing the battle and not leaving will mean certain destruction, those ships are doomed anyway. So sacrifying 4-6 ships in order for 30-40 ships to get away is certainly not an easy choice but if the alternative is the loss of ALL ships then it makes some sense.
    Also, in case you missed it, I also suggested ramming with fighters filled with explosives and the seps fighters are fully robotic as far as I know.

    As for the rebels, in case you missed it, there are several aliens with the rebels as well so your argument fails.
    Second, I see no need for the rebel ships to ram the DS, they had a plan, to let the fighters attack and blow up the DS. As soon as the shield went down, they put that plan into effect and as far as they knew it was working. So ramming the DS serves no purpose and it might even interfere with their own fighters. Besides their ships are still tied up with the ISDs and are kind of busy.

    So to sum up, ramming would make some sense in RotS as the seps were trapped and HAD to leave and leaving would mean victory and not leaving means certain destruction. In RotJ ramming makes less sense as the rebels plan was working and the fighters had begun their attack on the DS and the DS could not fire as their ships were in with the ISD and the rebel ships also had their hands full with said ISD.

    2) The rebels HAD to engage those ISD as they didn't stand a chance against the DS and it was recoginzed that it was a suicidal and they would not last long. And with the SSD at least we get some spoken tactic, in RotS we are never told anything about what either sides tactic is. Also you don't really see much of the battle to discern much strategy. I saw rep ships and seps ships in all directions, sometimes they were mixed up and sometimes they were in small groups. They were shooting at each other and we saw some ships get blown up but beyong that, not much.

    The rebels target the SSD and two fighters take out the bridge deflector shield, the ramming, hey the rebels do use it, while not fully planned did suggest a tactic. Disable the bridge deflector shield and attack it in the hopes to destroy it. I saw two rebel fighters fly towards the SSD bridge, one was blown up and the other, while damaged, managed to crash into the bridge.
    Sensbile tactic all around, get rid of the shield that protects a vital area and then attack that area.
    Loosing the bridge would cripple the ship and if we involve EU the SSD did have a back up bridge but they explosion in the main bridge caused too much damage and the ship crashed before it could be used.

    3) What Vader bit are you talking about? The asteroid belt in ESB? As I said, it goes to show that the empire or rather the Sith, aren't concerned with loss of life. One need not look further than the DS to see that, destroying an entire planet's worth of lives, resources and materials is very wastefull, aside from the horror of it.
    They want something and they don't care what it costs to achive it.

    In RotS Palpatine arranged the whole battle over Coruscant, costing who knows how many lives and destroyed ships just so he could get Anakin and Dooku to fight, not to mention he put his own life on the line. If you want to talk stupid then that takes the cake.
    He could easily have arranged that fight in a way that involved far less risk to himself and had far fewer varaibles.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Apr 25, 2013
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  25. Giovs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2013
    star 2
    The Asteroid Field chase.
    It's funny, fun, thrilling, and it has great music.

    "How are we going to get out of this one?"
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