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Feminism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by anakin_girl, Mar 19, 2004.

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  1. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    The fact is, gender discrimination and it's opponents, as well as race discrimination and it's opponents, are basically being distracted. There's no reason why we should think along different lines of race and gender, or even sexuality; we just do. Given that poverty, death and disease don't tend to check race, gender or sexuality beforehand, I don't see why we should. It's just so ******* petty. I mean, how can I oppress the poor when I have to worry about accusations of racism or sexism or homophobia! :eek:

    E_S
     
  2. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    I have a question. Don't women wind up being equally oppressed if they try too hard to force themselves into stereotypical male gender roles instead of female ones?

    Not to say I'm opposed to all of what you say, a_g, but I'm curious as to where the ideal balance is.
     
  3. FlamingSword

    FlamingSword Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Or should we have blue jeans cut the same way for men and women, despite the fact that men have external genitalia?

    Women and men are different. There's no doubt about it. However, the whole issue is that we shouldn't let societal expectations limit either men or women, and especially women. It should be based on ability, potential, etc. Not on what one's gender is.
     
  4. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    But my question is, why should we have to wear a torture rack, or a shirt, just because some people can't handle seeing bare breasts?

    Um, because it makes other people uncomfortable?

    "Well, they shouldn't be uncomfortable," I hear you think to yourself. Maybe not, but you asked.

    Civilized people balance their own comfort with the comfort of others. They don't play their radios too loudly, nor do they turn their radios off altogether.

    I believe your complaint is not that culture actually has standards for dress and behavior, but that the standards differ between men and women.

    That's okay, though, because men and women are different. Different cultures emphasize the differences to varying degrees. A culture can go too far in one direction, reducing one sex to second-class status. But a culture can also go too far in the opposite direction, attempting to create a society in which everyone is identical, androgynous, and largely miserable.


    "Innocent until proven guilty."

    Not in civil suits. ;) The burden of proof is on the accused. That's why OJ won the criminal case but not he civil one.


    I agree that probablity comes into play, but on what grounds should a person sue? People have the right to spend their own money as they wish, hiring as they wish. Or do you actually disagree.

    More to the point, on this issue, you're not for equality at all. At least, what you're suggesting won't bring about equality. The looming threat of lawsuits -- of having to prove your own innocence in an age of lawsuits with huge payouts -- will create a huge disincentive to hiring men.
     
  5. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Don't women wind up being equally oppressed if they try too hard to force themselves into stereotypical male gender roles instead of female ones?

    I think that I understand what you're talking about, and would agree that they do face a kind of oppression, albeit a different kind, in that they are categorized as lesbians for some damned odd reason. But to be honest, what advantages does a woman gain by leaning heavily towards the "feminine" angle? Really, truthfully, in the end, what kind of life is granted to her by going the expected way?

    But a culture can also go too far in the opposite direction, attempting to create a society in which everyone is identical, androgynous, and largely miserable

    And why would everyone have to be "largely miserable"? If there's a realistic way to breed sex differences out of the human race, I'd be all for it. Because what so's damned good about the way it is right now? Really, tell me, what good comes from having men and women as they are right now?
     
  6. Moriarte

    Moriarte Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2001
    As far as porn goes, it just facilitates men's fantasies just as romance novels do for women. Men are VISUAL creatures. We get turned on by what we see whereas women get turned on by what they hear/read. Both have the possibility of creating an unrealistic portrayal of the opposite sex (male or female), but just because a man looks at porn does not automatically make him a mysoginist or that he views women as objects.

    Incidentally, did you know that almost ALL romance novels havea rape scene in them and that the vast majority of romance novels are written by WOMEN?!

    A_G:

    There are men smaller than I am playing in the NFL. Why not women?

    The mere fact that men are built for muscle, something you REALLY need in football. The disparity between the physicalities of the sexes makes gender-segregated sports necessary.

    And you won't. I am one. wink.gif

    Did I ever tell you that tough women turn me on ;)?

    The reason I specifically say young girls is because you don't see too many young boys being raped by grown women.

    Boys can still be molested and sexually harmed.

    I prefer to keep my genitalia protected from the sun, and I would think a man definitely would--but to each his own. Nudity doesn't bother me. I just don't like the idea that a man is allowed to be more comfortable than I am.

    Men have parts that hang out too, and pants or undies do not make them altogether comfortable all the time either. But what about the people who do not want to see naked people everywhere, what about their freedoms?

    If your daughter, when given the choice between a doll and a truck, chooses the doll, then let her play with the doll--I don't have a problem with that. But if she chooses the truck, she shouldn't be persuaded to try the doll because "that's what girls do."

    I, as a parent, will decide how my child(ren) will grow up. If I feel that what my child is doing is wrong, I will stop it. That is an idea that is generally accepted for anyone's child(ren).

    And yes, I am arguing for men to do "traditional women's work". I didn't make up the idea of housework being women's work. My husband is better at it than I am (I say as I type on the comp and he vacuums the living room). I also think women are rendering themselves helpless if they don't know how to take care of cars--if you're going to drive a car, you need to know what the hell might be wrong with it when it breaks down.

    Most boys, I feel, do this anyways. Especially when boys and girls go to college.

    I'm not interested in punishing men (some of them maybe, but not the gender as a whole), I just want to be on equal standing with them.

    What do you mean by "equal"? Even saying equal under the law is ambiguous. Men and women are biologically and mentally different. Putting it generally, men have tendencies from birth, as do women. These tendecies, as boys and girls grow, lead them to activities that have gradually become "male" dominated and "female" dominated i.e. boys play 'rough' and girls play 'nice'. Boys are more dominate and aggressive while girls are more submissive and docile (As compared to boys). You see this when watching boys and girls in playgrounds. AS they grow older, these activies and thinking processes will lead to further gender seperation of 'play'. How are you going to go against what men and women typically do, when their genders lead them to find favor in certain things throughout their entire lives? And I am well aware of exceptions.

    Not this feminist. And I'll have no respect for anyone who votes for her just because she's a woman.

    I feel it will be played up. Then Demos will accuse the Reps of accusing the Dems of using her feminity to gain votes. Some will vote just to have the first female President and nothing else, and this will mar her, should it come to pass.

    That was my point. She went in his room, therefore, it wasn't rape, and she needs to shut her mouth.

    I know, I was echoing you :).

    I agree to
     
  7. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    but just because a man looks at porn does not automatically make him a mysoginist or that he views women as objects

    But that still doesn't answer my question entirely...does looking at those kinds of images create an unrealistic ideal in the back of men's minds of what they would want if they could have it? I know there are some men who do indeed develop that obsession to the exclusion of having a real relationship with a woman...and sad as it may be, I have to wonder if they aren't at least more honest in their preferences. I can never help wondering how many men would toss aside their wives/girlfriends in a second if they could be guaranteed to have that perfect women? Would there be women who would do that sort of thing if the situation were reversed, and it was the perfect man? Of course there's always going to be that shallow element. But, I really don't think it would be nearly as many women as it would be men who would go for that ideal female.

    We get turned on by what we see whereas women get turned on by what they hear/read

    And that's the problem in the end...the heterosexual male ideal tends to be a beautiful woman who has very little or nothing to say. Unless you can find a way to incorporate intelligence and wit into a woman's physical appearance without her looking like a candidate for the loony bin. But it's well nigh impossible to make personality a component in sexual attraction if one is going on physical appearance alone...which winds up making the ideal woman for a man nothing more than an object. And wouldn't that mean sexual objectification is being practised after all?

    (To be fair, if it were possible, I would honestly wish that all of us could have the partners we really want, not having to scramble and try to find someone to fufill the urge with, and then sometimes try to make relationships with them for various reasons. That's the reason why I think relationships are failing so much nowadays, because of expectations, but that's another matter).

    Incidentally, did you know that almost ALL romance novels havea rape scene in them and that the vast majority of romance novels are written by WOMEN?!

    I am very well aware of that (which is one of many reasons I don't read them...or watch soap operas), and also aware that these types of scenarios tend to result from the screwed-up portrayal of sexuality women get in this culture. They're told that rape isn't always rape, and that sometimes, they really want to be sexually used, even when they may really not want that at all. But, so many voices go on in the head sometimes, it's really hard to know which one to listen to.
     
  8. Jedi_Hood

    Jedi_Hood Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 10, 2000
    I'm still wondering about how this went from a debate on feminism to a debate on the usefulness of urinals. ;)
     
  9. liberalmaverick

    liberalmaverick Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Mmkay...good topic.

    anakin_girl: Thanks for starting this topic. I am a guy but I agree with the basic premise of feminism as you described it, as well as most of the things you said in your first post. The fact that I was raised in a family of a mother and two sisters (and a father who spent and spends a lot more time at work than at home) might have something to do with it, but I'd like to think that it was because of my own intuition. :)

    1. Women and men should be able to do the exact same jobs, including combat jobs and playing in the NFL, and receive the exact same pay for it. If any employer has the choice between hiring a man and hiring a woman, and all other things being equal, chooses to hire the man because the woman is of child-bearing age, married and "might" get pregnant and want maternity leave, the employer should be taken to the cleaners in court.

    2. Women should only have children or take their husbands' last names if they want to. They should not feel obligated to in any way. Motherhood is too important a job to enter into it out of some sense of duty or obligation--the overwhelming maternal desire should be there before even considering going off birth control.

    3. Birth control should be readily and easily available, and women should be educated on how to use it. Abortions should be available during first trimester with no questions asked.

    All young girls should be taught self-defense in school in order to avoid being taken advantage of by machismo men.


    Agreed on all points. Though I would say that everyone, male and female, should learn self-defense. And, please, teach people to kick people in the ass, not the crotch......I got nailed in the nuts one time and no one, not even the most foul of sexual predators, should have to go through that.

    4. Women should be able to dress however they want. If men can take off their shirts in public, we should be able to take off ours.

    Agreed, and I'd greatly appreciate that. ;) :)

    Not that I'd misbehave or anything, of course.

    5. We need to get rid of gender roles. If a guy wants to play with Barbies, let him. Ditto if a girl wants to play with Matchbox cars. Guys should be taught to clean bathrooms and do dishes, and should be taught that they are not too good to do it, and that it is not "women's work". Girls should be taught to mow grass and take care of their own cars.

    Indeed. Guys should be taught not only to clean bathrooms but to keep them clean. Seriously, the public bathrooms at my school have urine at all the wrong places. Sometimes guys can be so disgusting it makes me ashamed to be of the male gender.

    6. Paying on a date should be determined by who initiated the date and who is making the most money, not who has a penis.

    Or by whatever arrangement is mutually comfortable.

    I agree with most of your points about "people who make feminists look bad" except this one:

    If some guy says he wants to see you in his hotel room and you go, it isn't rape, so don't try to get an abortion due to rape.

    That's a little over-the-top because what if I just invite a girl over to my hotel (or bed) room for a friendly chat? If the girl goes and then gets raped, then she gets raped. Rape doesn't automatically become okay depending on where it occurs. And only the rapist should get the blame in a case of rape.

    A little off-topic note: Why do some people (both male and female) find the urge to rape people? Is it really just for the sex? I've never had sex, consensual or otherwise, so I wouldn't know, but it seems to me that if you want to do it, it's a lot more fun when your partner wants to do it too. All that kicking and screaming during rape must really take the pleasure out of it.

    I read somewhere that male rapists often rape women to demoralize women or to satisfy their feelings that women are inferior, rather than for sexual pleasure.

    jedi-ES:
    Look at the tape. Whenever women expose their breasts in any public situation outside of nud
     
  10. Cyprusg

    Cyprusg Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2002
    does looking at those kinds of images create an unrealistic ideal in the back of men's minds of what they would want if they could have it? I know there are some men who do indeed develop that obsession to the exclusion of having a real relationship with a woman...and sad as it may be, I have to wonder if they aren't at least more honest in their preferences. I can never help wondering how many men would toss aside their wives/girlfriends in a second if they could be guaranteed to have that perfect women?

    What do you mean to the exclusion of having a real relationship? I HIGHLY doubt a guy would turn down a real relationship because of the effects porn. If that seems like the case most likely they have social issues, not because of any effect that porn has had on their lifestyle.

    But does it create an unrealistic ideal of what a woman should be? I think it can. I've watched a lot of porn in my days because I used to work for a porn company. Many women that I've turned down would say I have an unrealistic view of what women should be. But I have to date beautiful women and they have to be good in bed. Maybe some of it is because of porn and some of it is because of women in the media and how they're glorified if they're beautiful. I don't know, it could be a lot of different factors.

    But keep in mind as far as porn goes, more and more women are watching porn. I know when I went to college, women would watch porn in their dorms all the time. What's to say women these days don't an unrealistic idea of what men should be? I think every one of us feels pressure to look their best. It's unfortunate that society has become so shallow, but that's just the way it is.

    As far as men wanting that perfect women and would dump their girlfriend/wife for one I think it's the same way with women. Don't kid yourself, women cheat just as much as guys do. Maybe that wasn't the case 20 years ago, but it sure as hell is the case these days. The difference though is that maybe the guy is seeking a beautiful women while the women is seeking a good looking guy with a great personality. A guys main focus is on looks, has been since the beginning of time and nothing will change that. While women can settle for less in the looks department, but need other personality traits (or money).

    And that's the problem in the end...the heterosexual male ideal tends to be a beautiful woman who has very little or nothing to say. Unless you can find a way to incorporate intelligence and wit into a woman's physical appearance without her looking like a candidate for the loony bin. But it's well nigh impossible to make personality a component in sexual attraction if one is going on physical appearance alone...which winds up making the ideal woman for a man nothing more than an object. And wouldn't that mean sexual objectification is being practised after all?

    What's worse a guy going for a woman because of her looks or a women going for a man because of his money? We live in a shallow society, but men aren't the only ones doing wrong that's for sure.
     
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    But that still doesn't answer my question entirely...does looking at those kinds of images create an unrealistic ideal in the back of men's minds of what they would want if they could have it?

    I've never had that problem; I'm young, rich, overconfident and good looking.

    the heterosexual male ideal tends to be a beautiful woman who has very little or nothing to say.

    I love generalisations!

    PPOR.

    Note: The second "P" in PPOR means proof, not conjecture, heresay, opinion or speculation.

    E_S
     
  12. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    To chime in with Ender's post, I too question the idea that "the heterosexual male ideal tends to be a beautiful woman who has very little or nothing to say."

    I mean, if that's true, why do men find the Princess Leia so damn attractive? Her sharp tongue and wit to match should disqualify her as an object of adoration, if the theory holds water.
     
  13. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    - Generally enjoy cleaner restroom facilities (though from what I hear, cleanliness at public high school restrooms are about the same for both genders, with female just slightly better. Maybe high school kids are just messed up. I certainly am.)

    Nope. Their restrooms are generally not as clean, from what I hear.
     
  14. somethingfamiliar

    somethingfamiliar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 20, 2003
    I mean, if that's true, why do men find the Princess Leia so damn attractive? Her sharp tongue and wit to match should disqualify her as an object of adoration, if the theory holds water.

    I love it when Bubba gets secular. Remember the Batman vs. Superman thread in the Amphitheatre?

    And that's the problem in the end...the heterosexual male ideal tends to be a beautiful woman who has very little or nothing to say.

    I'm sensing a bit of personal frustration here. This is just the female version of "I'm a nice guy, but girls only want bad boys."
     
  15. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000


    I get that vibe too.

    I would ask though if hetro males only are interested in beautiful woman with no intelligence, does this mean all internet relationships take place between lesbians?

    Because, you know... they don't.
     
  16. Master_Fwiffo

    Master_Fwiffo Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 29, 2001
    I mean, if that's true, why do men find the Princess Leia so damn attractive
    Two Words: The Bikini ;) :D ^^
     
  17. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    When you guys look at porn (or Victoria's Secret, or whatever fantasy material triggers your sex drive), would you actually want to be with that type of woman, to the exclusion of any other kind of woman? Because I'm trying to understand the fascination with porn for so many guys (other than the context of the sexual drive).
    I've never thought that I'd like to be with a woman I saw in a picture or a movie somewhere - because, quite simply, I don't know her. Gorgeous or not, she could be a real bitch. Even if she's the nicest person on the planet, she might still not be of a personality that suits mine; she might not be someone I can have fun with. Women in pictures are either sources of aesthetic beauty or sexual excitement; nothing more. There's no emotional interest there.

    Is it? I understand not having discrimination in public schools, in hiring civil servants, and in awarding government contracts, but what about private property rights?
    Once again, I agree that it should be this way. I think any organization that doesn't work for the government or receive government funds or anything of that nature should be able to hire/deal with anyone it pleases. Unfortunately, reactionary legislation of the last couple of decades has destroyed the concept of employer rights and private property rights. So it is the law that an employer cannot discriminate because of religion, race, gender, etc. when hiring.

    I want people to be as comfortable as is reasonably possible, but acting as if men and women are completely identical is not the way to do it.
    But it's not a matter of pretending the genders are identical. The female breast is viewed sexually because society made it that way, not the other way around. It isn't an inherently sexual body part; it isn't an essential part of intercourse. It's not that no woman should be allowed to wear a shirt, only that no woman should be required to. Then again, I really don't think clothes should be required at all. We've become healthily open-minded regarding sexual acts and preferences, but are still stuck in the Victorian era with our Ashcroftian prudishness about nudity. There is nothing wrong with the human body, and it should not be hidden by law.

    I'm sure you're for women in combat: same job, same pay. But what about the draft?
    Me, I believe the draft is a horrible institution that I equate to government-run slavery. Its mere existence horrifies me, and I would never go if drafted - not because I don't support the country or the military, but because the concept of the draft is so appalling I could never support it. But if we must have the draft, then I think men and women should be treated equally under it. All women when they reach 18 should have to fill out their Selective Services registration cards, and the draft should be completely gender-blind.

    And, if it takes two people to make a child, how come the woman can get an abortion even if the man wants the child?
    Fully agreed. See my thoughts on this earlier in the thread.

    The reason I specifically say young girls is because you don't see too many young boys being raped by grown women.
    But you do hear a fair bit about young boys being raped by grown men. However, since you have no problem offering such classes to both genders, I'm satisfied.

    Men have parts that hang out too, and pants or undies do not make them altogether comfortable all the time either. But what about the people who do not want to see naked people everywhere, what about their freedoms?
    Actually, I find briefs very uncomfortable. Is there an equivalent of boxers in the bra department?

    Anyway, regarding those people who don't want to see naked people -- their freedoms entitle them not to look, and to ban naked people from their private property. They may choose not to have dealings with naked people,
     
  18. jedi-ES

    jedi-ES Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    DarthYama

    Only if they haven't seen/rarely see breasts and still think it's something sexual for reasons unknown. After a while, it starts to lose its impact and other illusions of things beyond comprehension. And they don't understand what they're for. They produce milk that feeds their babies. Anything sexual about that? I think not.

    Not necessarily. I'm sure that in most cases, they have seen plenty of breasts and they become sexually stimulated from seeing them and act out in an aggressive way (at least in the example I gave.) And breasts are sexual. Yes, they produce milk for babies. They also respond to sexual/sensual touch, one indicator that they are indeed a part of human sexuality.

    anakin_girl

    But why should men's pectoral muscles be allowed to be exposed, and not women's breasts?

    In out society, breasts are seen as sexual rather than a part of a woman. Other societies don't do this, but ours does and unless you want to accept public fornication as well, breasts and men's pecs can't be seen as the same.

    Yes, but that's a problem with the men, not with us. We shouldn't have to cover up just because some men can't control themselves. That's not our fault, and we shouldn't have to be uncomfortable because of it.

    Essentially, that is true. But if you want this situation, you may have to accept greater risks with this behavior that may ultimately lead to rape. Actions have consequences and the baring of breasts will have a consequence of greater sexual assault toward women by men.

    There are some big, strong, muscular women out there. We aren't natural weaklings.

    Yes, there are. But they won't make it in the NFL. The strongest women are much slower than any man in the NFL and outsider of kickers, they still aren't as strong. Women are strong in regards to pain tolerance -- greater than men. But they won't be in the NFL.

    I personally wouldn't want to think someone was giving me a job simply because I'm a woman. However, I resent the idea that someone would turn me down for a job because I am married, of childbearing age, and "might" get pregnant.

    I would resent it too. But you must make sure that's the reason why you aren't hired.

    So where are these things that women can do that men can't?

    Well, first there is childbirth (and don't take this like you probably will. This isn't meant as a mysoginistic in the least. The ability should be respected.) I would suggest that they are more caring than men and situations where that caring is needed: nursing, child psychology, etc. They can more easily sympathize with people who are dealing with emotional issues. They have a better "bedside manner."

    Also, we still don't have equality in genders, professional sports being an example. Professional female athletes aren't paid as well as professional male athletes.

    Because a lot more people watch men's sports than women sports and it's a simple case of economics. Until women's sports can prove themselves as popular as men's sports, women athletes will always be paid less than male athletes. Simple as that.
     
  19. Darth_Zidious

    Darth_Zidious Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2001
    I agree with most of your points, but I don't think I agree about the NFL. I would favor a separate female professional league. This would actually allow more women to play the sport than if they had to directly compete with men.

    In professional tennis, if the male and female leagues were combined, fewer women would make it towards the top. Of course some would, but not as many as do now. Many think that the female game is superior, since it is not dominated by ace serves.
     
  20. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    And breasts are sexual. Yes, they produce milk for babies. They also respond to sexual/sensual touch, one indicator that they are indeed a part of human sexuality.
    My problem with your argument is this: My arms respond to sensual touch. So does my neck. If you're going to tell me I should be covering those up, we'll come to blows. For that matter, as a man, my chest is responsive to sensual touch. I don't think that in and of itself is enough to classify a body part as sexual. The entire human body is a part of human sexuality; I for one won't advocate unisex burkas.

    In out society, breasts are seen as sexual rather than a part of a woman. Other societies don't do this, but ours does and unless you want to accept public fornication as well, breasts and men's pecs can't be seen as the same.
    However, there's no inequality issue here, as neither men nor women can fornicate publicly. I'm not sure whether or not societal values have any place in government; by and large I'd say no. But I know that societal values ought not to be able to create laws that promote/enforce inequality. Societal values once held that black people should use different doors. Fortunately that is no longer the case. But when societal values did see it that way, is it your assessment that it would have been right to codify it into law?

    Essentially, that is true. But if you want this situation, you may have to accept greater risks with this behavior that may ultimately lead to rape. Actions have consequences and the baring of breasts will have a consequence of greater sexual assault toward women by men.
    Which is a risk that I'm sure any woman going topless will be well aware of. But it's still a risk she has the right to take. And a man who rapes a topless woman should be treated no differently than any rapist under the law.


    By the way, I'm hoping somebody can clarify something for me. It is my understanding that under the law if I started a business and chose to hire only men (or Asians or whatever), I would be discriminating illegally against women (or other ethnicities, etc.), and could be sued for that. How is it, then, that professional sports, which are businesses, are legally allowed to maintain gender segregation?

    -Paul
     
  21. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    I'm sensing a bit of personal frustration here

    That's a real educated argument. What, praytell, does that have to do with the price of ouzo in Athens?

    But keep in mind as far as porn goes, more and more women are watching porn

    I know, and it's rather sad in a way. I don't think any studies have ever been done on why there's such an increase, but I wonder if it doesn't have a lot to do with the subtle pressure on women to be more overtly sexual, and to be "open". There's a lot of this crap in women's magazines (one of the tools of Satan 8-}), telling its readers to watch porn with their boyfriends, do this, do that, all about pleasing him, him, him. I haven't fully read an entire issue of Maxim or anything like that, but I plainly do not recall seeing anything vaguely like that in the magazine, about doing things that give her pleasure. I'm afraid that one unintended side effect of women's "liberation" is that many more women have become more open about their sexuality...but it's mostly in the context of how they can integrate that sexuality to match a man's. Even when they're encouraged to explore their own feelings, it always seems to wind up back at HIS reactions, HIS feelings. There's no equality in the approach at all.

    What's worse a guy going for a woman because of her looks or a women going for a man because of his money? We live in a shallow society, but men aren't the only ones doing wrong that's for sure

    Honestly, guys have absolutely no right to judge the criteria a woman uses in looking for a mate. If she's looking for someone with money, fine. The majority of guys (not all, okay?) are going by looks alone. That's what equality is about, folks. If one sex can be shallow, so can the other one. If I can't say anything about it (which it seems from the comments here that I can't), neither can a guy, unless he can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's always considered more than just looks when seeking a girlfriend. (For the record, all of the guys I dated were not finanically well-off, far from it...and I didn't practise rampant looksism, either. I do try to practise what I preach).

    Well, first there is childbirth (and don't take this like you probably will. This isn't meant as a mysoginistic in the least. The ability should be respected.) I would suggest that they are more caring than men and situations where that caring is needed: nursing, child psychology, etc. They can more easily sympathize with people who are dealing with emotional issues. They have a better "bedside manner

    Sorry, but this is not true in every case of a woman. (You should see my family...*rolls eyes to heaven).
     
  22. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Um, because it makes other people uncomfortable?

    That's not my problem. It's not like the radio analogy--sound comes to me whether I want it to or not. No one is forced to stare at me.

    It makes me uncomfortable to see fat guys without their shirts on. It's not illegal though, nor should it be.

    I believe your complaint is not that culture actually has standards for dress and behavior, but that the standards differ between men and women.

    That's okay, though, because men and women are different.


    It's OK for you, because you're a man and when it gets hot in Alabama in the summer, you can take your shirt off. When it gets hot in North Carolina in the summer, I'm forced to either sweat or stay inside.

    A culture can go too far in one direction, reducing one sex to second-class status.

    Like ours.

    People have the right to spend their own money as they wish, hiring as they wish. Or do you actually disagree.

    Yes, I actually disagree, and so does the law. You do not have the right to discriminate based on sex, race, or nationality. Or do you want to open a business with a sign that says "Women, blacks and Italians need not apply?" Go for it--I'd love to see how fast you get shut down.

    And why would everyone have to be "largely miserable"? If there's a realistic way to breed sex differences out of the human race, I'd be all for it. Because what so's damned good about the way it is right now? Really, tell me, what good comes from having men and women as they are right now?

    It's great for men, Derth--that's why they don't want the system changed. It's working to their advantage. That's why women like us who stick up for ourselves and demand equality get called "*****es".

    But what about the people who do not want to see naked people everywhere, what about their freedoms?

    Why should they be allowed to impose their standards on others?

    They are free not to look. As I told Bubba, I would prefer not to see fat men without shirts on. But fat men are still allowed to take their shirts off. What about my freedom?

    If I feel that what my child is doing is wrong, I will stop it. That is an idea that is generally accepted for anyone's child(ren).

    So would you try to stop your son from playing with a doll, or your daughter from playing with a truck?

    These tendecies, as boys and girls grow, lead them to activities that have gradually become "male" dominated and "female" dominated i.e. boys play 'rough' and girls play 'nice'. Boys are more dominate and aggressive while girls are more submissive and docile (As compared to boys). You see this when watching boys and girls in playgrounds. AS they grow older, these activies and thinking processes will lead to further gender seperation of 'play'. How are you going to go against what men and women typically do, when their genders lead them to find favor in certain things throughout their entire lives? And I am well aware of exceptions.

    Tell me this--why do traditionally female-dominated professions, such as teaching and nursing, pay less than traditionally male-dominated professions, such as construction, banking, and management? And yes, I am friends with a couple, the husband works construction, the wife is a teacher. She has a masters degree, he has no degree. But he makes more money than she does.

    liberalmaverick: Thanks. :)

    The fact that I was raised in a family of a mother and two sisters (and a father who spent and spends a lot more time at work than at home) might have something to do with it, but I'd like to think that it was because of my own intuition.

    My brother also has two older sisters, as well as a father who treats the women in his life (his mother, his wife, and both daughters) very well, and I think this has been to his advantage as well. I just hope if I ever have a son, he knows as much about how to be a good husband as the men close to me know.

    And, please, teach people to kick people in the ass, not
     
  23. Short Round McFly

    Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 1999
    Do you have a problem with Porkins in a speedo?
     
  24. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    just want to repeat the question I asked above--why are the "caring" professions, which are traditionally female-dominated, also generally lower-paying?

    The only reason I can think of is because it has a lot to do with the general perception of these jobs. It's a similar perception of being a mother...since these traits are supposed to be so innate in a woman, it obviously can't be hard work for her, so why should she get any real compensation for it? Not that I'm saying mothers should get paychecks, because having children is a choice, but I do think it's a crock of you-get-the-idea when a woman who has kids is told what's she doing isn't "real" work. Or, if she's in a "helping" profession, that her job duties aren't that demanding, because she must like helping people, and isn't that its own reward? Right. Even if you go into the job because you like helping people, that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to proper compensation for the amount of aggravation you're expected to go through. [face_plain]

    I mean, if that's true, why do men find the Princess Leia so damn attractive
    Two Words: The Bikini


    Yeah, that pretty much is the only time most guys ever found her attractive, from what I've noticed. I've read quite a few comments about her in other scenes from fanboys who usually describe her as the oh-so-derogatory "b" word, and a few where the word "Feminazi" was actually used to describe her. How you can equate Leia with a radical feminist is beyond me, but you could never go wrong underestimating the intelligence of some fanboys, I suppose. 8-}

    Women in pictures are either sources of aesthetic beauty or sexual excitement; nothing more. There's no emotional interest there

    That's ultimately the problem I have with the whole porn issue. What you're describing is objectification (how can you call it anything else?), and when a guy looks at this exaggerated ideal of what's supposed to be sexually attractive, it creates this image in his mind of what a woman is supposed to be. And I wonder how much impact it has on his perceptions when it comes to women who don't have the advantage of stylists and airbrushing. And what happens to those women who have to go against those perceptions.

    Does it create a sense of disconnection in a sexual relationship, for example? You mentioned there's no emotional interest for you in those pictures. So, that means you obviously need a relationship with some sort of emotional connection. But is that true for the majority of men who routinely use porn? Because I honestly can't see how a brain can accomodate two opposing concepts like that. If I'm attracted to someone, I need to know that I could have some kind of connection with them.

    As for this hyper-sexual feminine being the male idea...well, I'm basing it on the proof I see in the media. Because none of those pictures of naked and lingerie women talk, obviously. And the chicks in porn movies aren't saying very much, either (even when they have dialogue). (Okay, so Britney sings in her videos, but there aren't too many guys ****ing off to her vocal range, I'll wager ;)). And it winds up having a potentially damaging effect on any women who are watching the movies, too. If it has the potential to create an unrealistic expectation in a man's mind, think about what it can do to a woman. And while it might not harm him in the long run (guys can either have partners, or not have them at all, both options seem to work for them), there are an awful lot of women who do want sexual relationships with men. And many of them carry this crap around in their heads of what they're supposed to be, and they can't be happy the way they are.(It's the exaggerated ideal that makes many women ask their boyfriends or husbands "Does this make me look fat?"...if any of you guys ever had your SO ask you that question too many times, now you know why she was asking it).

    There's a line that many women's magazines include every so often in their "sex advice"...that a woman shouldn't be afraid of her body, because men don't c
     
  25. Short Round McFly

    Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 1999
    This is what a woman should look like:

    [image=http://totcine.galeon.com/html/celeb/asiaargento/asiaargento6.jpg]
     
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