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Feminism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by anakin_girl, Mar 19, 2004.

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  1. Darth_Zidious

    Darth_Zidious Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Right now, however, there is no place for women to play football professionally.

    WPFL
     
  2. Lank_Pavail

    Lank_Pavail Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2002
    [face_laugh] Love that line from Allston, Mastadge! :D

    Well, as a pro-choice and semi-socially conscious individual, I see where you're coming from, A_G. I might disagree with the combat positions, with you, but only so far as to note that any woman who would go inot combat would also have to realize that there is a possibility of rape. I think the Geneva Convention has protections in place for such eventualities, but even in those natins who are signatories, not everyone follows the rules.

    Virtually none of the things you mentioned would really bother me one way of the other. Just so long as when my girlfriend goes around shirtless, I'm the only guy allowed to touch. ;)
     
  3. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Breasts are a visual sexual symbol, as much as a physical one in our. Pretending otherwise is self delusion of the highest order. Saying they shouldn't be would be like saying men should wag their penises at each other in greeting as certain african cultures do. You can not change culture by fiat. I'd think the liberals here would have realized that from their extensive historical knowledge of the colonization failures of Europe and America's own history with it's indigenous tribes.



     
  4. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    a_g, you seem to have an inconsistent position.

    "People have the right to spend their own money as they wish, hiring as they wish. Or do you actually disagree."

    Yes, I actually disagree, and so does the law. You do not have the right to discriminate based on sex, race, or nationality. Or do you want to open a business with a sign that says "Women, blacks and Italians need not apply?" Go for it--I'd love to see how fast you get shut down.


    "But what about the people who do not want to see naked people everywhere, what about their freedoms?"

    Why should they be allowed to impose their standards on others?

    They are free not to look. As I told Bubba, I would prefer not to see fat men without shirts on. But fat men are still allowed to take their shirts off. What about my freedom? [emphasis mine]
    You seem to have no problem taking from others the right to do as they wish with their own money, but when it comes to your freedom... well, you're seething over the fact that going topless is against the law.

    The fact that job discrimination is already illegal, well, that matters: "I actually disagree, and so does the law." The fact that going topless is already illegal? Apparently, that's utterly irrelevant.

    When it comes to standards of decency, you think society shouldn't impose its will upon others. "Why should they be allowed to impose their standards on others?" But you make an exception for standards of equality. How nice.


    My two questions are these:

    First, if you think people ought to be free to be as weird and odd as they want, why shouldn't they be free to be as racist as they want?

    Second, which is the more fundamental freedom, the right to go topless or the right to determine what happens to your own property?

    (Here's a hint: the American Revolution was started over taxes, and the American Civil War was fought over whether people could own other people as property.)
     
  5. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Maybe people do view breasts as a sexual symbol--however, asking women to cover their breasts, and hence keep their shirts on when men are not required to do so, simply because men find breasts to be sexual symbols and can't handle seeing bare ones, is sexism of the highest order.
     
  6. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I'm sure lesbians don't view breasts as sexual, just men.

    So tell me A_G if a lesbian wanted breasts to be covered in public because they were a sex symbol, would that be sexist as well?
     
  7. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Maybe people do view breasts as a sexual symbol--however, asking women to cover their breasts, and hence keep their shirts on when men are not required to do so, simply because men find breasts to be sexual symbols and can't handle seeing bare ones, is sexism of the highest order.

    Actually, no: keeping women from voting is much higher. Or would you be willing to be disenfranchised if you could run around topless?

    I must ask, what if other women find breasts to be sexual symbols? If members of both sexes find breasts to be sexual, is it really sexist to cover them up?
     
  8. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    I must ask, what if other women find breasts to be sexual symbols? If members of both sexes find breasts to be sexual, is it really sexist to cover them up?

    Perhaps the larger question to be asked is, who determined that breasts were sexual objects in the first place? And is this the case for every single human civilization that has ever existed? The answer to that last question would definitely be "no". If more cultures in the world DO see the breast as taboo, that has a hell of a lot to do with the way Western civilization (and the good old granddaddies who ran the joint, so to speak) viewed the female form. And it hasn't changed very much...actually, it might be worse now than it was. At least the message was consistent...it's wrong to uncover your breast in full view of the public, that was the basic view. Now, it's more like, you can't go topless in public, but you're heartily encouraged to show as much of your boobs as legally possible. That's any better than not being allowed to show them at all?!!
     
  9. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Yes, it is still sexist, because the discrimination is still applied only to women, and men can still take their shirts off.

    I'm curious--why do you guys have such a problem with this? Why does the idea of equality bother you so much?

    First, if you think people ought to be free to be as weird and odd as they want, why shouldn't they be free to be as racist as they want?

    Because being racist is wrong, and being weird and odd isn't.

    By refusing to hire blacks, you are oppressing other people. By wanting to take my top off, I am oppressing no one.

    Second, which is the more fundamental freedom, the right to go topless or the right to determine what happens to your own property?

    You have the right to determine what happens to your own property as long as you don't use that right to discriminate or oppress others.

    As I have said, I am not oppressing anyone by wanting to take my top off.

    As far as making anyone "uncomfortable"--where is your outrage against fat men wanting to take their shirts off?
     
  10. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    "the men who ran it in the good old days when they were off being good little oppressive colonizers"

    Documents like the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence (and the U.S. Constitution, Common Sense, the Federalist Papers, The Wealth of Nations, etc.) laid the foundation for the most free society this planet has ever seen.

    You might want to keep that in mind the next time you consider bad-mouthing dead white men.
     
  11. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Nerder please read the following.

    You can not change culture by fiat
    .


    Please do so until it sinks in.

    Edit// Nice attempt at a spin job A_G but the idea of equality doesn't bother me, and it probably doesn't bother Bubba. Wrapping some absurd arguement in the banner of equality makes it no less absurd and doesn't mean it's goal or purpose is equality.
     
  12. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Those papers you listed only offered freedoms to white male property owners when they were written. ;)

    If more cultures in the world DO see the breast as taboo, that has a hell of a lot to do with the way Western civilization (and the good old granddaddies who ran the joint, so to speak) viewed the female form.

    Yes. Western civilization is patriarchal, and has been allowed to remain that way because a millenia of oppressing women has allowed even women to remain convinced that we are somehow "supposed" to be oppressed. That is why more women don't fight back.

    But it isn't because men were "supposed" to be in charge, making more money, or having more rights.
     
  13. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    You might want to keep that in mind the next time you consider bad-mouthing dead white men

    I'll bad mouth dead white men who never fully practised what they preached. I seem to remember the Magna Carta benefitting the nobility of England more than it did the peasants. And the documents for this country...when did it ever benefit anyone other than white Protestant males? I seem to remember a little something about the blacks having to be included by something called the Emancipation Proclamation...which a lot of dead white men never wanted to have passed.

    And the whole thing with women and voting, well, we already know about that, I think. Even us dumb and dead white women. ;)

    Please do so until it sinks in

    Am I to translate that as, "Shut up, you bleeping whore, you ain't go no right to talk?" Wow, how utterly open-minded of you.
     
  14. Master_Fwiffo

    Master_Fwiffo Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 29, 2001
    I'm curious--why do you guys have such a problem with this? Why does the idea of equality bother you so much?

    Why are you so overtly concerned with being able to bare your breast?

    Besides, do you really want every guy for 3 miles staring at you?
     
  15. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Because it is hot here in the summer and I am sick of having to wear more clothing than the males!

    If they stare, it is not my problem.

    Just like if a 400-pound male goes to the pool in a thong, it is not his problem if people don't want to look at him.
     
  16. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Besides, do you really want every guy for 3 miles staring at you?

    Why do you have to look?

    Are your minds REALLY that one-tracked? You can't NOT help looking at a pair of boobs? They're all the bloody same, man, ain't no fascination there when you see enough of 'em, damn.

    You can not change culture by fiat

    Yeah, but it can be changed by Lamborghini...preferably with the foot pushing the gas down to the floor and busting through a brick wall. :D
     
  17. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I have every right to stare at your breasts if I want to, if you find it offensive, don't pay attention.

    Hey I could loudly make disparaging comments to my friends about the size and appearance of your breasts, if it offends you, don't listen.
     
  18. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    So, you can look because you have the right as a male to look at every woman and stare at her breasts, because that's the primary purpose of a woman, to be attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex? Well, why didn't you say so before?!!!! We could have avoided all of this useless rhetoric if you would have just come out and shown your true colors!

    And if you want to make comments about women's boobs, then let women make comments about the size and appearance of your genitalia, old boy. Probably not much there to talk about, so it's not like women are missing anything, but anyway...
     
  19. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    I'm curious--why do you guys have such a problem with this? Why does the idea of equality bother you so much?

    For me, it's your lack of perspective that bothers me, the fact that you're willing to throw away fundamental freedoms but you're screeching about running around topless.


    Because being racist is wrong, and being weird and odd isn't.

    And who the hell are you to impose your standards on others?

    Besides, doesn't freedom entail the right to do immoral things as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others?

    Or do Klansmen not enjoy freedom of speech?


    By refusing to hire blacks, you are oppressing other people. By wanting to take my top off, I am oppressing no one.

    Horse manure.

    Choosing to hire one person over another -- for any reason -- is not oppression.

    Or, if you can, explain how it is.


    And yes, obviously, the work of the Founding Fathers was incomplete. But without that work, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do y'all criticize the suffragettes of the late 19th and early 20th centuries for just working for the right to vote and not the supposed right to run around topless?

    OF COURSE YOU DON'T.
     
  20. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Hey I could loudly make disparaging comments to my friends about the size and appearance of your breasts, if it offends you, don't listen.

    Can I make loud disparaging comments about your beer gut next time you wear a swimsuit?

    For me, it's your lack of perspective that bothers me, the fact that you're willing to throw away fundamental freedoms but you're screeching about running around topless.

    The fundamental freedom to be racist, you mean?

    And who the hell are you to impose your standards on others?

    So am I to assume that you think being a racist is perfectly OK? Seems that way.

    Besides, doesn't freedom entail the right to do immoral things as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others?

    Operative words: as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. You can think whatever you want, you can even say whatever you want (although if you make racist or sexist comments in the wrong place, you'll probably get the crap beaten out of you), but you can't infringe upon someone's right to look for a job, wherever they please. And you cannot refuse to hire them due to their race or their sex.

    Or do Klansmen not enjoy freedom of speech?

    See the above. They can say whatever they want, they can even demonstrate. But they can't discriminate in hiring people.

    Choosing to hire one person over another -- for any reason -- is not oppression.

    Or, if you can, explain how it is.


    If I am being refused over something I can't help--being a woman--and I am being refused simply because some sexist ***tard doesn't like women--then I am being oppressed, as are any other women who might want to work for that company.

    I am really concerned about why you think discrimination based on race or sex is perfectly OK. It's not about freedom to do with your money as you please. Your freedom is trumped where someone else's rights begin. And you can't discriminate in hiring practices. If all people refused to hire blacks or women, what would happen? No black person and no woman would have a job.

    And yes, obviously, the work of the Founding Fathers was incomplete.

    And I will continue to criticize the work of dead white men who only intended to give rights to other white men.
     
  21. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I don't drink beer, it's a fast food gut.
     
  22. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Well, if you do have a gut, you don't have much right to be commenting on the appearance of women's breasts, do ya, Fatty? 8-}
     
  23. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Why not? How does my slight gut make your breasts any less droopy and mishapen?
     
  24. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    How can you prove that my boobs are in any state resembling what you said? Yours might be, but mine are just fine.

    So, how's your thing hanging lately? A little wilted? A little droopy? Needs some help in the get-up and go department?
     
  25. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    So, you can look because you have the right as a male to look at every woman and stare at her breasts, because that's the primary purpose of a woman, to be attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex?

    Way to put words in other people's mouths. Apparently, no matter what a man says, that somehow proves that he is a sexist shallow pig.

    "That woman is attractive."
    "So you're saying that the only purpose of women is to be attractive, and you only care about looks?"

    "Bananas are good."
    "So you have an obesseion with phallic fruit because it asserts your superiority over the world?"

    "The sky is blue."
    "So you're saying that if I, as a woman, think differently, I'm just some stupid bimbo?"

    Now, maybe I'm exaggerating, and maybe you don't have some misandrist thing going on and a deep-seated loathing of males, but it's honestly looking that way from my perspective.

    On topic: I'm all in favor of equal rights. About the whole topless thing, if women want to, I think that should be OK. However, since breasts are sexualized, if indecency laws are changed to allow female toplessness, it shouldn't be expected for society to instantly adapt, and for men to just automatically keep their eyes straight ahead lest he be sued for sexual harassment. A sexualized part of the body will draw attention. I mean, if a shirtless man is attractive and well-built, should it be expected that no woman look at him? Same with an attractive and well-built woman. However, if such a thing is put in place, society will adapt over time, and as I see it take a much healthier attitude towards things liek the Super Bowl non-incident. Expecting instant change, however, isn't logical.
     
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