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Feminism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by anakin_girl, Mar 19, 2004.

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  1. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Women right that other women shouldn't talk too much and you're claiming it's men who think that?

    Well, they don't get these ideas from inside their own heads. They tend to write from experiences they've had with guys, you know? Real ones, made of flesh and blood and bone, not little paper ones covered in gold leaf.

    If you want somone to fullfil your deeply held sterotypes I suggest you abandon the internet because anyone here who thinks your a fool isn't doing so based n your looks or sex, they're doing it because you keep saying foolish things

    I don't think there could be a bigger fool anywhere on the Internet other than the person who just ain't getting what I'm trying to say. Hello kettle, meet black.

    Do I agree with the stereotype I made above? Not at all. My point, however, is that stereotyping about people making generalizations is unbearably ironic, an when you look at it the other way, it makes just as little sense

    Agreed, but why do I have to be the one to take the damned high road all of the time? What's the sense in maintaining nobility of spirit and mind when you're going to have people throwing insults at you? If you're going to fight with them, you have to come down to their level. And this is the level they fight at, by stereotyping. I don't like stereotyping either, but we live in a damned imperfect world. So, it's either go off and cry about it like a little wussy girl would...or come out swinging whenever necessary. let me tell you, I didn't get nothing by being a little wussy girl.

    Maybe it would be easier if I just went with the prevailing culture...become stupid, become a bloody bimbo, who sometimes acts intelligent depending on the guy I'm with. Is that the only way I'm allowed to be?

     
  2. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    I'm not advocating racism and sexism, anakin_girl. I'M ADVOCATING FREEDOM, and if that means people are free to be racists and sexists, so be it.
     
  3. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    You're advocating freedom to oppress other people.

    Should I also have the freedom to beat up whoever I want? Or should I be arrested for assault if I beat someone up?
     
  4. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    It's not oppression for one individual to refuse to hire another individual for whatever reason he wants.


    EDIT: And I'll note that you completely ignore the text of the article I posted just for you. Wonder why.


    2nd EDIT: And just how the hell is not hiring somebody comparable to assault?
     
  5. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Let me explain it to you in short words.


    No one here knows if you're a woman or not. No one here knows if you're a model or morbidly obese.

    what we have here is you making half assed statments which may fly when you're arguing in person and can cut to "this guy is oppressing me with his sexism!!" but here you can't do that. I suggets you go back and rethink your position and return when you can rely more on logic then cries of 'misogyny!'.

    I don't give a crap about you personally, all that interests me are your ideas, and many of those I find laughable and misguided. Please relize this the next time you're choosing to feel offended because I'm male.
     
  6. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    I suggets you go back and rethink your position and return when you can rely more on logic then cries of 'misogyny!'

    And the acceptable position would be what, exactly, as defined by your terms?

    I don't give a crap about you personally

    Hey, feeling's mutual times a hundred, dude.

    all that interests me are your ideas

    Only when they agree with yours...gotcha, Chief.

    and many of those I find laughable and misguided. Please relize this the next time you're choosing to feel offended because I'm male

    No, I'm offended because you're a one-dimensional yitzbacher. If a woman was saying this crap, she'd get the same response from me.
     
  7. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    It's not oppression for one individual to refuse to hire another individual for whatever reason he wants.

    Yes, it is, if the reasons involve race, color, sex, or national origin.


    EDIT: And I'll note that you completely ignore the text of the article I posted just for you. Wonder why.

    Because while I like Walter Williams, I had to wonder why an African-American man was advocating racism.


    2nd EDIT: And just how the hell is not hiring somebody comparable to assault?

    As I said, if everyone refuses to hire people just because they are black, or female, or Irish, or Italian, then the only people who will not be starving will be the male WASPs and the people who are willing to be dependent on them.

    And don't give me the "they can start their own businesses" crap, lest you want me to accuse you of ignoring my point about the fact that running one's own business requires money, which people who don't have jobs are not going to have--unless some nice male WASP gives it to them. And what if these male WASPs want to refuse to give money to black people, or women, or Italians, or Irish?
     
  8. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Oh really?

    I'd say that's laughable since when the women at cosmo say women shouldn't talk it's evidence men only like stupid women. I'd say if a woman was saying this it would be proof men are shallow to you.

    Honestly though you could not have picked a worse place to complain about men. Many of us here have female friends we've never met, many we've never even seen. There are people here who fell in love with women they'd never met and who felt insecure because they didn't think they were attractive enough.

    I'd say you should find a drunken frat house to complain about since they may actually resemble your sterotypes.
     
  9. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Yes, it is, if the reasons involve race, color, sex, or national origin.

    Explain how.


    "And I'll note that you completely ignore the text of the article I posted just for you. Wonder why."

    Because while I like Walter Williams, I had to wonder why an African-American man was advocating racism.


    So, that's your excuse for ignoring the article?

    Did you ever consider the possibility that Williams and I don't advocate racism, that -- instead -- we're simply advocating freedom?


    As I said, if everyone refuses to hire people just because they are black, or female, or Irish, or Italian, then the only people who will not be starving will be the male WASPs and the people who are willing to be dependent on them.

    Funny, but you seem to deny the possibility that black businessmen may refuse to hire whites, and that female business owners may refuse to hire men.

    Or are there no black or female entreprenuers in your own little world where the Man is still putting people down?
     
  10. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Funny, but you seem to deny the possibility that black businessmen may refuse to hire whites, and that female business owners may refuse to hire men.

    That would be wrong as well.

    Or are there no black or female entreprenuers in your own little world where the Man is still putting people down?

    How many black and female entrepreneurs are there in the real world, as opposed to white male ones?

    Explain how.

    I already did, but I will do it again.

    If everyone is allowed to discriminate against a particular race, sex, color, or national origin, then no one in that particular race, sex, color, or national origin will have jobs.

    You still haven't explained how black and female entrepreneurs are supposed to get money to start their own businesses if they can't find jobs because white men are allowed to discriminate against them.
     
  11. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Allowed to isn't the same as will.


    Or did no whites oppose slavery, and all men tried to oppress women?

    And attitudes are much different know then we were then. Pretending inside every white male is a racists sexist pig wiating for the chance to opress everyone is niether accurate nor evidence of the tolerance you so loudly esteem.
     
  12. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Allowed to isn't the same as will.

    But who is to say they won't?

    And even if one person does it, and several people end up without a job and starving because someone else was racist and sexist, that is one person too many.

    Or did no whites oppose slavery, and all men tried to oppress women?

    Too many didn't oppose slavery, and too many men did oppress women and still do, and what Bubba is advocating is a return to the times when racism and sexism were acceptable.

    Pretending inside every white male is a racists sexist pig wiating for the chance to opress everyone is niether accurate nor evidence of the tolerance you so loudly esteem.

    I don't think every white male is a racist, sexist pig--my father, brother and husband aren't (well, husband is only part-white :p ). But I don't want to give the ones who are the freedom to promote their racist, sexist agenda. As far as tolerance--I am intolerant of intolerance and I don't apologize for it.
     
  13. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Anyone who can only apply for one job is bound to end up cold and hungry one day.


    Furthermore, no he isn't saying they are acceptable, he's saying they should be allowed.

    Very libertarian. It strikes me similar to someone saying women should be allowed to go topless even though they personally wouldn't. And pelase dont' bring up "harm" again, it's red herring and you know it. Refusing to hire someone is not inately harming, for whatever reason because they always have the option of getting hired someplace else.

    Edit// It's easy to be tolerant of positions you agree with A_G, I'd have to say you aren't really that tolerant at all.
     
  14. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Refusing to hire someone is not inately harming, for whatever reason because they always have the ption of getting hired someplace else.

    You're assuming there are jobs. The economy sucks in some cities.

    When I got out of college, no one wanted to hire an inexperienced teacher, so I had to take an interim job--that and there just weren't very many jobs available in my field at the time.

    In a nearby county, the Pillowtex Corporation has just laid off a large group of people. What if those who are black or female or both lose job opportunities because racist sexist men don't want to hire them? In a failing economy, we don't need fewer job opportunities available for people simply because of their skin color or gender.

    It's easy to be tolerant of positions you agree with A_G, I'd have to say you aren't really that tolerant at all.

    As I said, intolerant of intolerance.

    Besides, I didn't come in this thread promoting tolerance--I came in here promoting equality.
     
  15. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Honestly though you could not have picked a worse place to complain about men

    No, I think I found the perfect place...which is sad, considering that you would THINK guys who are into such things as sci-fi, especially sagas where strong women play vital roles (SW and LOTR) would actually not be so bloody narrow-minded.

    I always had a high opinion of guys who were the social outcasts, who weren't popular, because I always thought they'd be the last people in the world to stereotype, considering some pretty nasty stereotypes get said about THEM. Oh, I've seen a few here that fit that description...but then, there are others, who are just as bad as the average frat boy.

    Dammit, why does faith have to be turned so dark? Because there's no room for faith in reality, and this is all reality, even on a messageboard.
     
  16. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    And when the white males quit because it's wrong and picket outside the company day and night because of all the free time they have and boycott it's goods...?

    Oh that's right they wouldn't do that because they don't care about non whites and women.

    Markets have systems to punish buisness owners, not the least of which is driving them out of buisness.

    I didn't come in this thread promoting tolerance--I came in here promoting equality.

    There's a word for equality without tolerance, it's totalitarianism.


    And Nader I don't know why you're as bitter and nonsensical about men as you've become, and I've lost interest in hoping you'll see reason. Suffice it to say you are wrong, you'll continue to be wrong and you have no idea who you're talking to when you make foolish accusations about who men are.
     
  17. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    So why didn't that system work in the days before anti-discrimination laws?
     
  18. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    The system did work, it just didn't work the way you thought it should work. Now most people would agree the system should work in a different way then it did, but forcing people to agree promotes niether equality nor tolerance.

    Tell me, have anti dscrimination laws made things equal?
     
  19. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    anakin_girl, at some point you need to stop lying about the opposition.

    Too many didn't oppose slavery, and too many men did oppress women and still do, and what Bubba is advocating is a return to the times when racism and sexism were acceptable.

    No, I'm not.

    It's bad enough you misrepresent the Bible as sexist and the Founding Fathers as unapologetic racists, but now you're misconstruing my position.

    I don't want racism and sexism to be acceptable. I just think that people ought to be free to be racist and sexist.

    The truth is, those who are racist and sexist in their hiring practices are shooting themselves in the foot by not hiring those who are best suited. The market will -- and should -- punish them.

    Let's go back to Williams' article:

    The bottom line is that the true test of one's commitment to freedom of association doesn't come when he allows people to associate in ways he deems acceptable. The true test comes when he's willing to permit others to associate in ways he deems grossly offensive.
    Discriminatory hiring practices are grossly offensive, but people should still be free to engage in such practices.

    And you should stop smearing me for saying so.

    Or do you think it's wholly impossible to believe that people should be free to engage in immoral behavior?
     
  20. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    More equal than they were before.
     
  21. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    And more laws will change that

    Tell me, when have laws ever made anyone equal in reality? Certainly the communist said everyone was equal, but they always have those who are more equal then others.

    Is your goal more equal, or equality?
     
  22. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    And more laws will change that

    No, a great shift in human thinking about sex and gender roles is the only thing that anyone could hope to have happen. A futile hope, unfortunately.

    The only other alternative is for women to stop complaining, be glad for what they have, and revel in the victories they've gained...and "enjoy being a girl". [face_laugh] (Obviously sarcastic, this statement...just so there is no misunderstanding).
     
  23. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Hi, I'm just chiming in to note that I'm still waiting on proof to Derth Nader's assertion about what men ultimately want in a women.

    In case anyone thought it'd slipped... Sadly, no.

    E_S
     
  24. DerthNader

    DerthNader Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Hi, I'm just chiming in to note that I'm still waiting on proof to Derth Nader's assertion about what men ultimately want in a women

    I'm still waiting for proof of what you guys ultimately want, too. I mean, if it's not something like the Victoria's Secret models, why are they held up as some ideal women should aspire to? And I've noticed an awful lot of you guys like those kinds of things, otherwise, there wouldn't be a reason to put women who look like that in those underwear. :D

    So, lay down for me your proof of what the ultimate woman is. Since I obviously have no right whatsoever to say it from what I've seen, since my perspective counts for naught in these matters, according to those such as yourself.

    I would try not to be so dumb and airheady and say that part of what you guys want in a woman IS intelligence and a personality that is complex and interesting...but then, that starts creating feelings of warm-fuzziness, and omiGAWD, I've, like, already stuck my finger down my throat enough today...I just can't lose any more contents from my stomach. 8-}
     
  25. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Breasts are a visual sexual symbol, as much as a physical one in our. Pretending otherwise is self delusion of the highest order. Saying they shouldn't be would be like saying men should wag their penises at each other in greeting as certain african cultures do.
    But if guys want to wag their penes at each other in greeting, why should we stop them? What is inherently wrong with that idea, other than that it might possibly offend someone?

    You can not change culture by fiat. I'd think the liberals here would have realized that from their extensive historical knowledge of the colonization failures of Europe and America's own history with it's indigenous tribes.
    Particularly in this part of the argument, I'm less concerned about culture and more concerned about the law. Certainly I don't think culture should have a problem with topless women (or stark nakedness, for that matter). But I know the law shouldn't be telling people they must wear clothes against their will. If society feels strongly to the contrary, society can sort itself out.

    You seem to have no problem taking from others the right to do as they wish with their own money, but when it comes to your freedom... well, you're seething over the fact that going topless is against the law.
    While I actually disagree with anakin_girl on this point (I feel that a private organization that neither works for the government nor accepts government money should have full freedom to decide who it hires and with whom it does business, for any reason at all), I don't see her position as inherently contradictory. Basically, she's attempting to insure freedom for everyone by legally guaranteeing minority groups freedom from discrimination. While I do not agree with this position, I understand it fully. On the other hand, it helps no one's freedom in any way to legally mandate certain articles of clothing.

    I must ask, what if other women find breasts to be sexual symbols? If members of both sexes find breasts to be sexual, is it really sexist to cover them up?
    Yes. Any standard one chooses to apply to one sex and not the other is an inherently sexist standard, for good or ill. By considering women's chests as sexual and not men's, you are taking a sexist stance.

    Because being racist is wrong, and being weird and odd isn't.
    In the spirit of fairness, anakin_girl, I'm going to have to point out that in making this statement, you're attempting to oppose your values on others. Now, they're good values. But a lot of people see exposing one's breasts in public is wrong, and you and I would both criticize them soundly for trying to codify this belief. Thus, much as I may abhor discrimination, I cannot approve of laws such as the ones that exist currently prohibiting private individuals and businesses from determining their own hiring policies and business dealings.

    Why are you so overtly concerned with being able to bare your breast?
    The reason her legal inability to bare her breasts bothers me is that it's legally-enforced inequality, plain and simple. I abhor injustice, most especially when forced by the government. I view setting standards of dress differently for the sexes as unjust, and when done by law, it is odious. As I said, I hope society would accept it, but what I'm really concerned about is the law.

    Besides, do you really want every guy for 3 miles staring at you?
    And this is, of course, the choice any woman would have to make. Just as she has a right to bare her breasts, men have the right to stare at them. But it ought to be her choice to make; the government shouldn't make it for her.

    I have every right to stare at your breasts if I want to, if you find it offensive, don't pay attention.

    Hey I could loudly make disparaging comments t
     
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